Tracking Force - Too Little Damages Records?

[gusten]

I am absolutely correct.


"For analysis of the mechanical
requirements of the pickup, the audio spectrum may be
divided into three parts: the amplitude-limited region (20
Hz to approximately 1000 Hz), the velocity-limited region
(approximately 1000 to 4000 Hz), and the acceleration limited region (above 4000 Hz). In the amplitude-limited
region, stiffness of the bearing element limits trackability;
therefore the bearing should be highly compliant. In the
velocity-limited region, damping should be low; and in the
acceleration-limited region (near resonance), a large
amount of damping is required to reduce the mechanical
impedance. Additional bearing stiffness may also be
desirable to raise the stylus resonance above 20 kHz."

The level is usually highest between 100-800Hz, this also means that needle velocity is highest, even if we take into account the RIAA compensation.
gusten

 

[cactuscowboy]

It seems people want to believe that higher VTF is damaging. And I'm sure in some instances, it really can be. But I think a lot of the fear is a result of successful marketing strategies by certain cartridge companies (Shure being the main one) to promote their light tracking styli as a way of differentiating their product from the competition. Look at the venerable Denon DL-103, with a published VTF spec of 2.3 to 2.7 grams -- that's double the range of most of Shure's flagship V15s! have you ever heard anybody complain that a DL-103 ruined their records? I haven't. And I doubt I will.

The irony is that Shure's marketing around lighter tracking styli has convinced people using inferior styli to track them light resulting in poor sound and ruined records. Kinda crazy when you think about it.

Absolutely right. The very common belief that 'lighter tracking = less wear' has to be one of the biggest myths in audio. Not just with newbies but also among some folks who've played records for years or even decades, and should know better.

Forty years ago I did all the testing, from 'light' to 'heavy' tracking (all within the manufacturer's suggested range) and by far the best tracking and sound quality came with the 'heavy' settings.

At this point, I have and use about fifteen different cartridges. All of them are used at or near the maximum recommended VTF. I have absolutely no problems with IGD or mistracking. If there's distortion evident, it's invariably due to a poor recording, or in the case of used records, groove damage.

 

[Ths364]

Not hard to understand too little tracking force doing damage. Imagine your stylus as a woodpecker's beak bouncing around your lp.... Man, I haven't watched the Flintstones in forever!

 

[Littletoot]

Well, that's where my question originally came from. I am using a cart/stylus with a recommended VTF that is higher than I'm used to. I set it originally at a value much lower than the recommended value; I set it at 1.5 G instead of the recommended value of over 2.5 G.

I did not hear any mistracking. The needle did not skip, nor did I hear any sibilance or obvious distortion. I also did not hear any distortion. I was advised to increase the VTF and I did, but it sounded the same to me.

I can imagine setting the VTF so low that the needle begins to skip or exhibit the problems you describe, but that means it sounds bad; does it also mean damage is being caused? That was actually my question.

My Denon 103R has a 'high' VTF - 2.5 grams. Initially, I was loathe to take it up to that number, not ever having tracked any cart at this pressure before. But, I hate to admit, it just sounds better at 2.5. It is in a good arm (Sony PUA-7), but is still mighty close to the record to me.

Interestingly, on my Sony Biotracers you can adjust the VTF 'on the fly'. Dialling it waaaay down from the manu recommended force makes the music sound thin and tinny. Adding pressure surely bends the cantilever up, but I didn't particularly notice the same changes to the music going the other way did. Jumping the groove didn't occur until the needle was nearly off the surface.

(btw, I think Ortofon uses the term 'mis-tracking' to include any degradation of the playback quality, not just the actual jumping from groove to groove.)

 

[a.wayne]

Absolutely right. The very common belief that 'lighter tracking = less wear' has to be one of the biggest myths in audio. Not just with newbies but also among some folks who've played records for years or even decades, and should know better.

Forty years ago I did all the testing, from 'light' to 'heavy' tracking (all within the manufacturer's suggested range) and by far the best tracking and sound quality came with the 'heavy' settings.

At this point, I have and use about fifteen different cartridges. All of them are used at or near the maximum recommended VTF. I have absolutely no problems with IGD or mistracking. If there's distortion evident, it's invariably due to a poor recording, or in the case of used records, groove damage.

Interesting....

Too heavy kills dynamics , too little increases distortion , a balancing act to say the least ...

 

[illini]

Too heavy kills dynamics ..

That hasn't been my experience, fwiw.

 

[cactuscowboy]

That hasn't been my experience, fwiw.

Nor my experience either. In fact, the "dynamics" is excellent at the upper range of the manufacturer's recommendation with any of the cartridges I use.

 

[iLUVanalog]

Well, that's where my question originally came from. I am using a cart/stylus with a recommended VTF that is higher than I'm used to. I set it originally at a value much lower than the recommended value; I set it at 1.5 G instead of the recommended value of over 2.5 G.

I did not hear any mistracking. The needle did not skip, nor did I hear any sibilance or obvious distortion. I also did not hear any distortion. I was advised to increase the VTF and I did, but it sounded the
I can imagine setting the VTF so low that the needle begins to skip or exhibit the problems you describe, but that means it sounds bad; does it also mean damage is being caused? That was actually my question.

The manufacturer recommends a particular VTF for a reason. If you're tracking way below the recommended VTF....again, the operative word is RECOMMENDED...you're not doing your stylus or records any favors. It may seem high to you, but you need to follow the recommendation of the manufacturer. You may not hear mistracking right away, but you will eventualy, and each time you under-VTF, you're slowly deteriorating the record, and you will hear the damage you've done eventually...and it's irreversible.

 

[montelatici]

Ok, maybe I have failed to understand the question. I thought the OP was questioning whether a cartridge designed (and recommended) to track at a given weight would do less damage if the weight is set at more than the recommended weight. If that is not the question. What is the question? I set my Shures at 1.5 gm, the upper end of most of them.

 

[bangsezmax]

The question at hand.

I can imagine setting the VTF so low that the needle begins to skip or exhibit the problems you describe, but that means it sounds bad; does it also mean damage is being caused? That was actually my question.

To which the answer has been an emphatic "yes."

 

[Wigwam Jones]

What I am saying is track at the middle to high end of a cartridge manufacturer's tracking force rating. This gets you better tracking in real life on most any good cartridge with all other aspects of setup correct.

All due respect, but again, you're just making a statement, not explaining why.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Apparently VPI and Ortofon are not credible enough sources, nor the collective wisdom of the AK members. Perhaps a higher power will intervene and pass down some tablets with the definitive response.

Jon

But you're ignoring what I posted that Shure said. Why is that? Contradicts the others?

 

[Wigwam Jones]

A quality stylus that tracks at the upper end of its designed range causes no more advanced wear than lower down on the range. So no harm occurs with heavier tracking, yet harm MAY occur with lighter tacking, ergo, track heavier. Maybe some one with a collection of old mags, recalls the same article...

Again, it's a statement, not an argument. All I'm hearing is "because I said so, and I read that other people said so, that's why." I'm sorry, but that's not an argument, that's a statement. I can't take that as any kind of proof.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Do you have any disposable LPs? You could use one for further testing and start lowering even more the VTF , trying to detect the beginning of mistracking distortion.

Most of my LPs are of the thrift store variety. Quite disposable.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Absolutely right. The very common belief that 'lighter tracking = less wear' has to be one of the biggest myths in audio. Not just with newbies but also among some folks who've played records for years or even decades, and should know better.

Forty years ago I did all the testing, from 'light' to 'heavy' tracking (all within the manufacturer's suggested range) and by far the best tracking and sound quality came with the 'heavy' settings.

At this point, I have and use about fifteen different cartridges. All of them are used at or near the maximum recommended VTF. I have absolutely no problems with IGD or mistracking. If there's distortion evident, it's invariably due to a poor recording, or in the case of used records, groove damage.

You make some interesting statements, but in the end, you jump from your observations to an unwarranted conclusion. All your observations point out that heavier tracking forces 'sound better' to you. OK, no problem. Then you jump to an assumption that lighter weight causes groove damage, with nothing backing that up other than you have seen no groove damage with heavier forces. I'm sorry, the logic just isn't there.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Ok, maybe I have failed to understand the question. I thought the OP was questioning whether a cartridge designed (and recommended) to track at a given weight would do less damage if the weight is set at more than the recommended weight. If that is not the question. What is the question? I set my Shures at 1.5 gm, the upper end of most of them.

That was not my question. I thought I made it pretty clear.

Presume that a cartridge has a manufacturer-specified range of 2.5 to 3.5 G. You set it at 1.5 G and it sounds fine to you. The question is not what sounds better. If you find it sounds better with a heavier weight, then use that, of course. But if it sounds the same with 1.5 G or 2.5 G, why would it be the case that the lighter weight would cause damage to the record. I keep hearing that it will, along with a lot of speculation about why it might, but I don't see anything resembling actual data.

I'm starting to think it's just a myth.

 

[zenith2134]

hello,
As has been previously documented elsewhere, stylus shape makes a difference. For example, the required tracking force for a line-contact stylus or other fine "micro-ridge" stylus can vary versus its elliptical counterpart.

*..No, I do not have a bibliography & notations, but a quick search through the vast, time-relevant, pertinent documentation can certainly yield answers.

Why wouldn't I track at 1.75gr if the 'manifacturer's nominal' is 1.5gr? Because it often sounds better. To me.

I look forward to reading more of this thread.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

The manufacturer recommends a particular VTF for a reason. If you're tracking way below the recommended VTF....again, the operative word is RECOMMENDED...you're not doing your stylus or records any favors. It may seem high to you, but you need to follow the recommendation of the manufacturer. You may not hear mistracking right away, but you will eventualy, and each time you under-VTF, you're slowly deteriorating the record, and you will hear the damage you've done eventually...and it's irreversible.

Again, that's a statement, but no reasoning behind it. I need to do it because it damages records. Why does it damage the records? Because I said so. I'm sorry, not a good enough reason. I need to know what data is available, rather than "don't do it, you'll damage your records." I get that everyone thinks it damage records, but I don't see any data that says it does.

 

[zenith2134]

hmm , I know I should keep quiet but when I think of records I've heard which were ruined, I think of the never-replaced cart and styli which has been so typical even in the rich neighborhoods here. But, Other people apparently had seemingly perfect pick-up eqpt. but they've managed to gouge their surfaces over the years. Either way.. eh.

That being said, it's hard for me to imagine that a deviance of +/-0.5gr could markedly accelerate groove wear unless your tip was canted improperly or is worn.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

The question at hand.
To which the answer has been an emphatic "yes."

The opinions, yes. Without much in the way of evidence. That's my point. Everyone says it, but no one is pointing to any published data which shows it. Are people that divorced from the scientific method that they can no longer distinguish between opinion, anecdotal evidence, and actual data?