Tracking Force - Too Little Damages Records?

[Wigwam Jones]

Hard to believe that often played Vinyl records still produce 'as new sound'
That methinks is Untrue
Worked for years in a national studio. Recordings were markedly worn after a dozen playings. That's with the TT's being constantly aligned/setup by the Tech guys (their babies) Using industry standard Stantons with Spherical needles ..only, as Ellipticals were... proven ...to be record destroyers.. chewing up record grooves badly,.. when Not Perfectly setup, every day almost, Something the Tech guys could not manage with reliability.
Consequently the notion of old vinyl recordings being in perfect condition strikes me as a bit more than 'suspect'.

I think that's a pretty controversial statement, not to mention being a bit off-topic in this thread.

I can understand the concept that wear happens whenever there is friction, so playing a record definitely causes wear. The question is whether or not that wear is audible. Agreed?

I certainly won't claim my records are 'perfect' or anything resembling that, but I can say that to my ears, the records which I purchased new back in the 1970s and 1980s still sound as they did when I bought them. That doesn't mean that they have not suffered wear and tear, but I really cannot hear it if that is the case.

I suspect that the statements that record labels used to put on the back covers of their records also comes into play here, when they recommended careful cleaning, keeping them from heat and dust, and promised a 'lifetime of enjoyment' if such recommendations were followed. Surely if records had a lifespan of only a dozen playings, they'd have urged people to replace them from time to time, since that's more money in their pockets.

As well, once upon a time, radio stations actually spun records. I would imagine those records got played a great deal; but did they get worn out after a dozen or so playings? I have to say that I think not.

All in all, I hate to reject your statement out of hand, but my opinion is it's somewhat far-fetched and hard for me to believe.

 

[Pio1980]

:saywhat:

Hard to believe that often played Vinyl records still produce 'as new sound'
That methinks is Untrue
Worked for years in a national studio. Recordings were markedly worn after a dozen playings. That's with the TT's being constantly aligned/setup by the Tech guys (their babies) Using industry standard Stantons with Spherical needles ..only, as Ellipticals were... proven ...to be record destroyers.. chewing up record grooves badly,.. when Not Perfectly setup, every day almost, Something the Tech guys could not manage with reliability.
Consequently the notion of old vinyl recordings being in perfect condition strikes me as a bit more than 'suspect'.

:saywhat: Not my experience. Also not a fan of sphericals except on records that require them, like very early LPs, styrene pressings, and of course Dynagroove.

 

[bangsezmax]

That explains why you choose the VTF you choose, but what about damage to the record. I can totally support the notion of choosing the VTF that sounds the best. Still unsure how a weight that is too light causes actual physical damage.

If you're hearing distortion from mistracking, it indicates that the stylus is moving around in the groove, not firmly seated, bouncing around from wall to wall. I firmly believe that this will damage records.

I'm not sure how applicable this is to the situation, but I'll tell you about it anyhow: I have a Blind Willie Johnson 78 -- "If I Had My Way I'd Tear the Building Down" (familiar to Grateful Dead fans as "Samson and Delilah"). Now 78s are purely lateral recordings -- the needle moves from side to side in the groove during playback. On this record, the force of the vocal alone moved the needle to the extent that there is visible damage to the record whenever he sings. You can see every passage where he belts it on the record, because the power of his voice on the recording thrashed the needle and visibly damaged the record.

At this point, I'm really not sure what's going to convince you on this issue. The second post on this thread had an example of someone apparently damaging their records tracking them too light. What other proof would satisfy you?

 

[montelatici]

Yep, praying has all kinds of advantages.

I was going to correct the Shure misspelling, but then it would not be a direct quote:


http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answe...lity-phonograph-cartridge---technical-seminar

Note: The Shure Technical Paper has the misspelling.

 

[gusten]

That explains why you choose the VTF you choose, but what about damage to the record. I can totally support the notion of choosing the VTF that sounds the best. Still unsure how a weight that is too light causes actual physical damage.

Let us say that tracking too light is not causing any damage to the grooves, and that this is easier to believe mechanically, than that it is causing damage. This can be more true as I see it. But who wants to listen to a cartridge that is tracking too light?
gusten

 

[rebellovw]

The slight amount of mistracking in the vertical plane due to not enough downforce to hold the stylus against the vinyl at all times causes the diamond to bounce along against the modulation. The impact at bounce is quite high

Best explanation that I've heard. Very concise. Avoid a bounce

 

[KentTeffeteller]

What I am saying is track at the middle to high end of a cartridge manufacturer's tracking force rating. This gets you better tracking in real life on most any good cartridge with all other aspects of setup correct.

 

[jnoyes]

Apparently VPI and Ortofon are not credible enough sources, nor the collective wisdom of the AK members. Perhaps a higher power will intervene and pass down some tablets with the definitive response.

Jon

 

[gusten]

What we need is just a spare VTF so that the needle even when tracking difficult parts is still in contact with both walls. Nothing more than that.
gusten

 

[montelatici]

If you're hearing distortion from mistracking, it indicates that the stylus is moving around in the groove, not firmly seated, bouncing around from wall to wall. I firmly believe that this will damage records.

I'm not sure how applicable this is to the situation, but I'll tell you about it anyhow: I have a Blind Willie Johnson 78 -- "If I Had My Way I'd Tear the Building Down" (familiar to Grateful Dead fans as "Samson and Delilah"). Now 78s are purely lateral recordings -- the needle moves from side to side in the groove during playback. On this record, the force of the vocal alone moved the needle to the extent that there is visible damage to the record whenever he sings. You can see every passage where he belts it on the record, because the power of his voice on the recording thrashed the needle and visibly damaged the record.

At this point, I'm really not sure what's going to convince you on this issue. The second post on this thread had an example of someone apparently damaging their records tracking them too light. What other proof would satisfy you?

I think we need more than an anecdote. Especially when the engineers at a company that has manufactured cartridges since the 1940s, say something different:


"One might think of tracking at one extreme in terms of a very heavy, high mass stylus playing at a high tracking force. Trackability would in some way be achieved, but at the expense of significant distortion, serious record damage and stylus tip wear."

http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answe...lity-phonograph-cartridge---technical-seminar


Also, the issue is far more complex. To achieve good trackability a good cartridge, should have high compliance and zero damping at low under 1K Hz (when the movement of the stylus is slow), then up to 4-5K Hz the stylus is moving at a high velocity and needs to be "stiiffer" (less compliance)with little to no damping then at the highest frequencies where there is high acceleration of the stylus rather than absolute velocity you need a heavy damping effect. Weighing a stylus down with much more weight than it was designed for to achieve the above, is not a good idea.

 

[bangsezmax]

What we need is just a spare VTF so that the needle even when tracking difficult parts is still in contact with both walls. Nothing more than that.

So then how do you tell? Nobody can look at the stylus tip and groove walls in motion in real time. All we have left to use then is our ears.

So find a difficult passage to track (that's why we have test records!). Start the VTF high and back down a notch with each playback until you start to hear audible anomalies. Then bump it back up to the last one where you didn't hear the anomalies. And leave it.

Like the Pirate's Code, I think of the published VTF recommendations as "guidelines." :yes: Suspensions can age and change their elasticity, or they may start out stiff and need to be broken in, etc. Nothing should be set in stone. On the low end, you don't want to hear distortion. On the extreme high end, you don't want to bottom out. In between, there's (hopefully) lots of room to optimize the signal to your tastes.

It seems people want to believe that higher VTF is damaging. And I'm sure in some instances, it really can be. But I think a lot of the fear is a result of successful marketing strategies by certain cartridge companies (Shure being the main one) to promote their light tracking styli as a way of differentiating their product from the competition. Look at the venerable Denon DL-103, with a published VTF spec of 2.3 to 2.7 grams -- that's double the range of most of Shure's flagship V15s! have you ever heard anybody complain that a DL-103 ruined their records? I haven't. And I doubt I will.

The irony is that Shure's marketing around lighter tracking styli has convinced people using inferior styli to track them light resulting in poor sound and ruined records. Kinda crazy when you think about it.

 

[perryinva]

There was a series of microphotographs that were published years ago in one of the audio mags, that showed before and after photos of groove damage from mistracking. As I recall, the stylus lifts out of the correct tracking location within the groove (for that particular shape), and like a diamond edged baseball card on the plastic spokes of a bicycle, literally sheared the tips off the extremes of the grooves. Seemed pretty obvious and definitive at the time I saw it, so I never track too light. What's the point (or the point of the question)? A quality stylus that tracks at the upper end of its designed range causes no more advanced wear than lower down on the range. So no harm occurs with heavier tracking, yet harm MAY occur with lighter tacking, ergo, track heavier. Maybe some one with a collection of old mags, recalls the same article...

 

[gusten]

I think we need more than an anecdote. Especially when the engineers at a company that has manufactured cartridges since the 1940s, say something different:


"One might think of tracking at one extreme in terms of a very heavy, high mass stylus playing at a high tracking force. Trackability would in some way be achieved, but at the expense of significant distortion, serious record damage and stylus tip wear."

http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answe...lity-phonograph-cartridge---technical-seminar


Also, the issue is far more complex. To achieve good trackability a good cartridge, should have high compliance and zero damping at low under 1K Hz (when the movement of the stylus is slow), then up to 4-5K Hz the stylus is moving at a high velocity and needs to be "stiiffer" (less compliance)with little to no damping then at the highest frequencies where there is high acceleration of the stylus rather than absolute velocity you need a heavy damping effect. Weighing a stylus down with much more weight than it was designed for to achieve the above, is not a good idea.

That is not really correct, needle velocity is higher at low frequencies, and as damping is velocity dependant we need a suspension with low damping, to be able to track low frequencies. This is normally measured at 100Hz. For high frequencies effective mass is dominant so damping has a low priority.
The easiest frequency to track is around 1KHz as neither velocity nor acceleration is dominant.
gusten

 

[gusten]

So then how do you tell? Nobody can look at the stylus tip and groove walls in motion in real time. All we have left to use then is our ears.

So find a difficult passage to track (that's why we have test records!). Start the VTF high and back down a notch with each playback until you start to hear audible anomalies. Then bump it back up to the last one where you didn't hear the anomalies. And leave it.

Like the Pirate's Code, I think of the published VTF recommendations as "guidelines." :yes: Suspensions can age and change their elasticity, or they may start out stiff and need to be broken in, etc. Nothing should be set in stone. On the low end, you don't want to hear distortion. On the extreme high end, you don't want to bottom out. In between, there's (hopefully) lots of room to optimize the signal to your tastes.

It seems people want to believe that higher VTF is damaging. And I'm sure in some instances, it really can be. But I think a lot of the fear is a result of successful marketing strategies by certain cartridge companies (Shure being the main one) to promote their light tracking styli as a way of differentiating their product from the competition. Look at the venerable Denon DL-103, with a published VTF spec of 2.3 to 2.7 grams -- that's double the range of most of Shure's flagship V15s! have you ever heard anybody complain that a DL-103 ruined their records? I haven't. And I doubt I will.

The irony is that Shure's marketing around lighter tracking styli has convinced people using inferior styli to track them light resulting in poor sound and ruined records. Kinda crazy when you think about it.

Yes, what we want is it to sound OK, I must admit I never look at the VTF, I don´t know what VTF I track at, I track so it sounds good.
In record wear depending on high or low VTF I don´t believe much, the wear I have with records is not from playing.
gusten

 

[bangsezmax]

I think we need more than an anecdote. Especially when the engineers at a company that has manufactured cartridges since the 1940s, say something different:


"One might think of tracking at one extreme in terms of a very heavy, high mass stylus playing at a high tracking force. Trackability would in some way be achieved, but at the expense of significant distortion, serious record damage and stylus tip wear."

http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answe...lity-phonograph-cartridge---technical-seminar.

The Shure marketing department strikes again!

I'm much more likely to believe the Shure engineer from this post than I am the white paper.

 

[montelatici]

That is not really correct, needle velocity is higher at low frequencies, and as damping is velocity dependant we need a suspension with low damping, to be able to track low frequencies. This is normally measured at 100Hz. For high frequencies effective mass is dominant so damping has a low priority.
The easiest frequency to track is around 1KHz as neither velocity nor acceleration is dominant.
gusten

I am absolutely correct.


"For analysis of the mechanical
requirements of the pickup, the audio spectrum may be
divided into three parts: the amplitude-limited region (20
Hz to approximately 1000 Hz), the velocity-limited region
(approximately 1000 to 4000 Hz), and the acceleration limited region (above 4000 Hz). In the amplitude-limited
region, stiffness of the bearing element limits trackability;
therefore the bearing should be highly compliant. In the
velocity-limited region, damping should be low; and in the
acceleration-limited region (near resonance), a large
amount of damping is required to reduce the mechanical
impedance. Additional bearing stiffness may also be
desirable to raise the stylus resonance above 20 kHz."

 

[bangsezmax]

montelatici, I hate to point this out, but have you noticed that the "answer" to every technical "problem" on that white paper is the Shure V15 Type IV?

Don't get me wrong, I own one and really like it. But that's an advertisement as much as it is a white paper.

 

[oldvinyldude]

I can imagine that a stylus tip, if not fully engaged with the groove walls, for any reason, would strike portions of the groove, as opposed to ride along the groove. The 'strikes' would be more damaging. I liken the situation to the lead in groove of many albums I own. It is often noiser than the grooves between tracks. I attribute this to mistracking occurring during the second or so until the stylus finds the groove. Well played albums have a higher crackle noise that I attribute to the strikes in the groove from the initially mistracking groove.

All this is anecdotal stuff though. Seems like the OP would like pictures, but I do not have any to offer.

 

[guiller]

Well, that's where my question originally came from. I am using a cart/stylus with a recommended VTF that is higher than I'm used to. I set it originally at a value much lower than the recommended value; I set it at 1.5 G instead of the recommended value of over 2.5 G.

I did not hear any mistracking. The needle did not skip, nor did I hear any sibilance or obvious distortion. I also did not hear any distortion. I was advised to increase the VTF and I did, but it sounded the same to me.

I can imagine setting the VTF so low that the needle begins to skip or exhibit the problems you describe, but that means it sounds bad; does it also mean damage is being caused? That was actually my question.

Do you have any disposable LPs? You could use one for further testing and start lowering even more the VTF , trying to detect the beginning of mistracking distortion.

 

[cgutz]

Aside from the experts (Ortofon, Shure, etc) who are all saying to light a VTF can damage records, consider this proposition:

We seem to agree a lighter force may cause mistracking, even if it doesn't cause skipping. What seems to be in dispute is whether mistracking at this level, while audible, can cause damage because the stylus pressure is light.

In college, I actually took a physics class in stereo reproduction. Yup, got 3 credits for my science requirement

In that class, we calculated the pressure on the vinyl of a conical stylus tracking at 1.5g. We did this by calculating the surface area of the conical stylus actually in contact with the groove walls. While I don't remember the exact amount, the PSI on the vinyl was in the neighborhood of 1,000-2,000psi because the contact area is small. Given the high psi, any "rattling" or "bouncing" of the stylus can easily create damage to the grooves! We then watched a magnified movie of the stylus "bouncing" in the groove damaging the vinyl - fyi - dirt in the groove had the same result - an explosive impact shattering vinyl.

The flip side, high tracking force, may not lead to damage if tracking properly. Anecdotally, just last night I played one of my junior high records (ABBA) that had been played on a cheap BSR with a ceramic cartridge over and over many times - who knows what the tracking force was (3-5g?). I wondered what it would sound like. Surprisingly free not only from groove damage distortion, but was relatively quiet.