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Tried and true crossover upgrade: Tobin Mods for Bozak B302a

Congratulations on some fine looking Bozak set! Please see my post #24 in this thread and read it carefully. Pat Tobin now recommends the crossover schematic shown there (attached) which is different than the one you are about to build! The original B-302A had a unique crossover point to the midrange (800mH). It is different than the 305 and the rest of the Bozak line. This one creates a 400Hz crossover point from woofer to midrange in your 305's. This is the point Bozak used in your 305's. This was optional on the 302's. Even though the 302 and 305 used the same basic crossover, the woofer values were different. It uses 50uf caps insted of 25uf. Notice it is a more recent version (see the dates) of the "Tobin Mod" than the one in post #11. Have you checked the values on your parts list as compared to what is in your stock crossover?

I'm not trying to rain on the parade at the last minute. I just want to make sure you have all the best information before you buy the parts and forge ahead. I would highly recommend searching for specific threads on the 305 and/or contacting Pat Tobin. Best of luck with the project!
 
Not raining on my parade by any means. I doubt I will be able to actually do the work before about 2 weeks.
I will check out your post earlier in the thread.

However, it appears that since these are 16ohm units I will need to half the capacitor value and double the resistor value?
Someone on the bozak yahoo group mentioned this but I have not been able to verify.

I want to make sure I do all of the homework I can before I actually turn on the solder gun.

Thanks for the replies!
 
Congratulations on some fine looking Bozak set! Please see my post #24 in this thread and read it carefully. Pat Tobin now recommends the crossover schematic shown there (attached) which is different than the one you are about to build! The original B-302A had a unique crossover point to the midrange (800mH). It is different than the 305 and the rest of the Bozak line. This one creates a 400Hz crossover point from woofer to midrange in your 305's. This is the point Bozak used in your 305's. This was optional on the 302's. Even though the 302 and 305 used the same basic crossover, the woofer values were different. It uses 50uf caps insted of 25uf. Notice it is a more recent version (see the dates) of the "Tobin Mod" than the one in post #11. Have you checked the values on your parts list as compared to what is in your stock crossover?

I have an extra crossover pair - I think I will try this different capacitor value when I get the urge to rebuild them.
 
Hey guys, great stuff here. Can anyone identify the model number of my Bozaks?

Sorry, photo not uploading.

OK, seems like I posted this photo in another thread and it wont allow me to do it again.

Here is the link to the photo, not sure I was ever able to identifiy these with absolute certainty, and would love to do the modification.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=524650
 
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Link to some literature

Here is some literature that should help you identify your drivers from the front without taking the back off the speakers.

http://www.hifilit.com/Bozak/Bozak.htm

You do have the driver components for a 302a system, but the enclosure is unusually small. I remember hearing of and reading about this model, but don't recall the number or name. If I remember correctly, Rudy Bozak was not happy with this cabinet at all, but the market was demanding smaller enclosures so performance was sacrificed. If you can get those drivers into a bigger enclosure, you will be very impressed.
 
Quick question:

Instead of a cap value of 2.0 µf, I installed one with a value of 2.2 uf. How will this affect the circuit?

Bozak-Tobin%20Crossover%20Schematic%20for%20B-302A.jpg

2.2 uF is a nominal value +/- 5%, which means the cap could be between 2.09 uF and 2.31 uF. You would have to measure it to be sure but I heard the 5% Daytons are pretty close to the stated value.

In any case these news ones should be closer to the XO point than the old ones you are replacing which are probably 10% tolerance.

This small difference should not cause any problems.
 
Resurrecting an old thread. I understand that Pat Tobin passed away a year or so ago, and very sorry to hear about that.
I am wondering if anyone carries the torch for his famed "Tobin Mods" for Bozak speakers. I am working on replicating a set of crossovers for a B310B 2-woofer speaker. The owner wants to keep the original crossovers and make new ones so he can switch between the two.

I'm looking into the schematic posted here on Page 1.
27076302315_5a4b4c729d_o.jpg


I know this schematic is for a slightly newer model speaker, but the general design looks to be the same. The B310B should have a 45-50 uf cap where the 25 uf cap is located on the midrange. The crossover points for the B310B are 400/2500 @ 6dB/octave. Assuming 8 ohm impedance on all the drivers.

In this schematic (replacing he 25 with a 50), there seems to be a significant amount of woofer/mid overlap between from 400Hz to about 1100 Hz by using a 1.6mH coil. I assume this is intentional. When I run through a WYSIWYG crossover calculator, it wants me to use a 3 mH coil on the woofer for a 400Hz crossover point. Has anyone tried this speaker with eliminating this overlap?

Also, is the notch filter necessary for metal cone tweeters, or was this an anomaly only on the fiber cone tweeters or the coaxial arrays? When I look at images of the N104 crossover I don't see any resistors in there that would demonstrate the installation of a notch filter at about 6kHz.
 
Brian,

I've just re-drawn a schematic for this crossover and will be starting a thread on it shortly- I'm rebuilding a set for my pal Tom.

There's an update to this mod- before his passing, Tobin put the T-101 to rest and started championing the T-104.

Give me a day or two (maybe three) and I'll post what I have.

Cheers,

Paul
 
Resurrecting an old thread. I understand that Pat Tobin passed away a year or so ago, and very sorry to hear about that.
I am wondering if anyone carries the torch for his famed "Tobin Mods" for Bozak speakers. I am working on replicating a set of crossovers for a B310B 2-woofer speaker. The owner wants to keep the original crossovers and make new ones so he can switch between the two.

I'm looking into the schematic posted here on Page 1.
27076302315_5a4b4c729d_o.jpg


I know this schematic is for a slightly newer model speaker, but the general design looks to be the same. The B310B should have a 45-50 uf cap where the 25 uf cap is located on the midrange. The crossover points for the B310B are 400/2500 @ 6dB/octave. Assuming 8 ohm impedance on all the drivers.

In this schematic (replacing he 25 with a 50), there seems to be a significant amount of woofer/mid overlap between from 400Hz to about 1100 Hz by using a 1.6mH coil. I assume this is intentional. When I run through a WYSIWYG crossover calculator, it wants me to use a 3 mH coil on the woofer for a 400Hz crossover point. Has anyone tried this speaker with eliminating this overlap?

Also, is the notch filter necessary for metal cone tweeters, or was this an anomaly only on the fiber cone tweeters or the coaxial arrays? When I look at images of the N104 crossover I don't see any resistors in there that would demonstrate the installation of a notch filter at about 6kHz.


That's the 101T schematic. You want the 104T.
 
Can someone explain to me what the Tobin mod is supposed to do? I have read it's a notch filter. But it doesn't look like a series notch filter I have ever seen.
 
The Tobin modification has four components:
(1) Downwards moves the crossover points for the midrange and woofer from 800 Hz to 400 Hz (inductor taps)
(2) Balances the hotter B-200Y tweeter to the other drivers (attenuator resistor)
(3) Flattens out an impedance rise at the upper end of the tweeters (Zobel)
(4) Un-reverses the reversed-polarity midrange so the polarity matches the other drivers.
If you have paper-cone midranges you likely also have paper-cone B-200X tweeters. So you likely do not need tweeter attenuation as the output SPL is not impressive.

You can elsewhere find plenty of discussion about replacing the resistor with an L-pad to allow you to dial in the exact amount of attenuation.

Paper-cone tweeters have a similar rise in impedance, so the flattening is a good choice.

So the short answer is, yes, you can use the Tobin modification, at least parts (1), (3), and (4).

I suggest upgrading the midranges to a B/Bc/C version as it makes a great deal of difference in sound quality, particularly where humans best hear.

Do not, no matter what anyone tells you, purchase a B-209A midrange. No no no.

The A version is the first of the aluminum cone midranges, and it requires a foam damping ring to address ringing. The rings are dessicated and non-functional, not replaceable, and without one you will have distortion. The surround was redesigned to fix the ringing issue. In consequence, purchase only the later drivers: B, Bc, or C. The Bc and C are identical, except the Bc is only rear-mount and the C is front or rear mount.

I also suggest upgrading the tweeters to a B-200Y as this will restore the treble, which is currently AWOL.
 
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One more thing. I also suggest you add the flower pot modification to cover the midrange. This will prevent the midrange and woofer from cross-modulating, more on the latter than the former. Removes distortion and cleans up the sound.
 
Thanks Retrovert...if I choose not to replace my paper cone drivers will I still be able to lower those crossover points? Should I isolate the paper cone B209 with a flower pot? Maybe just replace the wax caps with permanent ones with the same values? Tobin talks knowingly about the smooth sound of the "old" B302a loudspeakers before Rudy Bozak "jazzed them up" in the 60's for " New" buyers by adding bright aluminum cone drivers. So seeds odd to rebuild the vintage crossovers to "undo" the mistake made my changing the mid and hf drivers. I hope that made sense. My B209 serial numbers are 6000 and 6014....huge alnico magnets...can't imagine them not sounding great. I guess I have some deciding to do....only have a little money into my Bozaks, not sure if the Tobin mod is right for me
 
Yes, if you retain the paper-cone B-209 you can certainly move the crossover points lower and obtain the benefits of moving the larger woofer out of the midrange band where it less well reproduces signal. The flower pot modification is always a good idea because cross-modulation is distortion.

Tobin's commentary on the aluminum-cone B-209 is not about an error in new technology at all; it is about the polarity inversion implemented by Bozak which made the midrange more pronounced. Whomever told you that Tobin felt the aluminum-cone B-209 ruined the Bozak sound is incorrect. See below for details.

Here's what I've previously written on the subject to explain the basic issues, slightly edited for clarity and space.

Absolute Polarity

The absolute polarity, commonly called "acoustic polarity", and incorrectly as "absolute phase", concerns the direction of compression or rarefaction wavefronts. In short, does a positive signal move the speaker forward or backward. The reason this matters is that our ears were optimized by evolution to prefer compression before rarefaction as this is how sound happens in nature.

This difference occurs because of the Wood Effect. See The Wood Effect: Unaccounted Contributor to Error and Confusion in Acoustics and Audio by Clark Johnsen (1988). You can do a search on the Internet for further reading.

Somewhat simplified, the issue is a difference in how the ear and brain process the different waveform types:
Compression Wave (0 —> Vmax —> 0)​
versus
Rarefaction Wave (0 —> Vmin —> 0)​

In this case Vmax is the peak for the positive half of the waveform and Vmin is the peak for the negative half of the waveform. They are used to convey the different halves of the waveform in an AC cycle.

Compression before rarefaction occurs in instruments and real-world sound; the ear/brain prefers this relationship. An additional complication is that the two waveform halves are rarely symmetric for real-world sound, and the speaker may exacerbate this asymmetry, distorting the sound.

You'll find that the following situations can apply:
(a) playback equipment reverses polarity (preamplifier or DAC) compared to recording
or (b) the recording's polarity was reversed in recording, playback equipment maintains it
or (c) both equipment and recording polarity are reversed
or (d) both equipment and recording polarity match​

Some equipment contains a polarity reversal switch to restores proper phase. This is different than a switch to swap the polarity of only one speaker to make both speakers have the same polarity (i.e. the +/- at the amplifier matches that at the speaker), but not absolute polarity (i.e. both speakers move in the same direction, but do not prefer compression before rarefaction). So the polarity may be mostly correct or mostly incorrect depending upon your equipment, but even when you have the right phase for the equipment the individual recording may or may not be in absolute polarity with respect to playback equipment.

In summary, configure your speaker polarity for the majority of recordings and switch it for the minority, and rejoice in discovering new depths to sound.

Polarity Reversal in Bozak

Here's what I elsewhere wrote on this subject, which has some relevance here. Again slightly merged and edited for clarity and space.

Midranges may be wired with reverse polarity with the woofer and tweeter for better transient response and phase coherence. The ostensible goal is to minimize the non-linear phase shifts across the driver's spectrum. Some, as Betts below describes, prefer to take the hit in the center of the band so that is out of phase with the woofer and tweeter. Others have the high/low portions of the band be out of phase so that the main portion, where we hear the best, be in-phase. Except this is incorrect, because altering polarity does not alter phase, as the two are separate phenomenon. (I will post this in a subsequent message.)

The issue is accurately described as a polarity reversal not a phase reversal, which is incorrect, because (as above set forth) the rarefaction and compression waves are reversed when the driver polarity is reversed. But it also has phase-like characteristics because the driver direction is now reversed and thus 180 degrees out of phase. This makes the midrange more pronounced because the inversion of polarity alters the sound.

Consider why this works. The midrange has a driver on either side, whereas the woofer only has a driver on one side and we do not well hear phase shifts in low frequencies. The issue thus simplifies to enduring phase shifts in the upper end of the woofer region which would be more audible than the lower-end ones vs. phase shifts at the endpoints of the midrange compared to the adjoining drivers. So it appears to be an attempt to better merge the woofer-midrange and midrange-tweeter.

Bozak, like many manufacturers, chose the path of reversing the midrange to smooth the transition to woofer and tweeter and make the transition less pronounced, which had the side-effect of making the midrange more pronounced because of the reversal of polarity. Given the writings on the subject I do not think the latter was the intended effect, although it is often described as such.

Others prefer to maintain the midrange with identical polarity and use lower-order crossovers which add less phase shift of their own from component reactance.

The important fact is that Bozak made such a change and the Tobin modification undoes it. Bob Betts, Rudy Bozak's right-hand man and the co-designer of the famed Bozak 909/919 preamp and 929/939 amps among others, discusses the transient response and phase coherence:

www.bobsamerica.com/bozak-xoveranalysis.html
After much analysis, testing, and evaluation we made the decision to accept the phase shifts at the center of the midrange band, rather than at both ends of the midrange band. We then sat back and waited for the fireworks to begin. Oddly enough, there were amazingly few! This is surprising, since customers are usually very quick to express a complaint, but remain conspicuously quiet when content. The feedback from our dealers, reps and end-users was almost unanimously complimentary. One Sunday morning I received a phone call from Benny Goodman asking when I was going to come to his studio and "...make the new repairs that I heard at the factory?"This is not a "yes" or "no" or good or bad decision. It is a gray area of engineering that is associated with the subjectivity of how we listen, what we listen for, our personal tastes, our ear-to-brain calibration from live vs. reproduced experiences (or lack thereof), and the intuitive thought process. The condition (and dilemma) of where to place the phase incoherency is a trade off - neither is technically correct when applied to a passive crossover, but quite often, the intuitive thoughts of a semi-technical evaluator will weigh in favor of the in-phase condition, only because "it seems to make sense." Oddly enough, Bozak Inc. was one of the last manufacturers to effect the midrange phase reversal. At that time, according to our research of currently available 3-way speaker products, about 85% to 90% of the speaker industry had already made the "correction" changeover.

www.bobsamerica.com/bozak-xoveranalysis.html
If a speaker sounds like the sound is coming from inside the box, then it probably has poor transient capability, and if it sounds dull and lifeless, then the damping qualities are probably not very good. Here’s a standard test that engineers have used over the years: Play a known (to you), small jazz combo of acoustical (not electronic) instruments and listen to the bass drum and string bass. Are they separate and distinct? Or is the woofer just flopping around in rhythm to the beat? Bass is bass, but what is it that makes up the bass—can you tell by listening? So this is basically why two loudspeakers with similar “published” specifications can sound so vastly different. It would seem that no one ever offers specifications on IM, harmonic, and phase distortions. In my 40-plus years as an audio products design engineer, it has never ceased to amaze me how audio manufacturers perpetuate the virtues of “flatness”—linearity—without even so much as a mention of other physics characteristics. Over the years, amplifier producers have been forced, by public demand, to publish such numbers as intermodulation distortion, harmonic distortion, damping factor, etc. But remember that these figures are gleaned, gathered and garnered on a test bench using sine waves as audio signals and resistors, not loudspeakers, as loads. Seldom will you hear any discussions concerning “dynamic stability” or “transient reproduction.” Likewise, the loudspeaker industry suffers similar, if not worse, negative virtues.
 
Some technical discussion, I've previously written, on why polarity reversal and 180 degree phase shift are not identical, because the phase shift is delayed in time and the polarity reversal is instantaneous.

Here's proof.

(a) Take a sine wave. Reverse the polarity and sum with the original signal. What do you get? Zero because the signals exactly cancel.

(b) Now take the same sine wave, phase shift it 180 degrees. Now sum with the original signal. What do you get?

Well, you say, the two signals are identical but opposite in magnitude, n'est ce pas? So they sum to zero, correct? Mai non, mon cher! If the source signal stops the phase shifted version continues for 180 degrees in time after the polarity reversed signal has ceased. So if the source signal is anything other than an unvarying pure signal the sum is not the signal and its exact inverse.

(c) Now make the problem in (b) more complex by varying the amplitude of the source signal. Ahhh, now it becomes obvious. Summing no longer yields zero because of the time component means that different signals are being added.

(d) Now take the signal from (c) do a polarity inversion and 180 degree phase shift which, if the polarity inversion and phase shift were identical would yield the original signal. Sum with the original signal. What do you get? Answer: you don't get twice the original signal because the phase shift has moved the signal in time, and the amplitude is varying so the sum also varies.

It is a fine point, but an important one.

Repeat after me: Polarity Inversion != 180 degree Phase Shift

A difference in terminology exists for a reason. People are often sloppy in terminology and I have picked up that pernicious habit which I must guard against.

We talk about pure signals where the difference does not matter. But with real world signals, such as music, it makes all the difference.

I'm not being pedantic, I'm being precise. The curse of the EE. All I can say is none of my planes ever fell out of the sky because I confused polarity and phase. Well, that's probably because I didn't work in aerospace...
 
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