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Turntable (or something) has started tripping a relay (assumed) in my receiver when the needle drops

mhjmhjones

mhjmhjones

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Edit: this problem doesn’t just happen when the needle drops. It also happens from time to time while a record is playing. It happens on some records more than others. If I very slowly drop the tone arm, it is less likely to happen than if I just flip the lifting lever down.

This just started happening and it doesn’t always happen but it happens a lot. Player is a Dual 1229. Receiver is a Pioneer Elite from approximately 2008. Analog outs are shielded Morrow Audio interconnects going into a Parasound ZPhono preamp. Ground goes from record player to the ZPhono - I think I get a hum if run differently. Lately (it’s winter here, so static abounds) if I lift the cart off the record and then put it back down on the record, it causes what I am assuming is one of the relays in the receiver to switch off for a few seconds and then back on.

I don’t even know where to start In troubleshooting this issue! Any ideas?
 
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Almost sounds like the logic circuit's relay in the amp is tripping on-&-off at the slightest input. Do you have another turntable you could try?

My amps do have an idle setting that goes from idle-to-on when a signal is seen. But, they will stay "on" for a good 10 minutes (I haven't really measured the exact time) before going back to idle, if they don't see a signal. Your amp seems very sensitive with no time delay.

BTW... your Avatar! That has to be one of the greatest starting scenes of any movie. :thumbsup:
 
mhjmhjones said:
This just started happening and it doesn’t always happen but it happens a lot. Player is a Dual 1229.
I don’t even know where to start In troubleshooting this issue! Any ideas?
Click to expand...
My guess is that it's happening when the mute switch in the turntable is deactivated when the stylus drops. The muting switch on my Dual was causing a loud pop when it was deactivated. It turned out the capacitor needed replacing (in the turntable) but the pop could be causing the the trip in another part of your system.
 
Nashou66 said:
Might be the amp needs its DC off set checked. When was the last time you checked it? Too much DC offset can trigger the protection relays.

Athanasios
Click to expand...

I am 100% certain that I have never checked the DC offset. I hope there’s a YouTube video for that.
 
ear4audio said:
My guess is that it's happening when the mute switch in the turntable is deactivated when the stylus drops. The muting switch on my Dual was causing a loud pop when it was deactivated. It turned out the capacitor needed replacing (in the turntable) but the pop could be causing the the trip in another part of your system.
Click to expand...

There is an audible click on and off coming from the receiver when this happens. It’s a sound that the receiver always makes when I am turning it on and maybe also when I switch inputs. But I can’t recall for sure that it does that and for what inputs.

The mute switch in the Dual can be a tiny bit slow to turn off but I think it works ok. But it does have old capacitors in it.
 
Mr Boochie said:
Almost sounds like the logic circuit's relay in the amp is tripping on-&-off at the slightest input. Do you have another turntable you could try?

My amps do have an idle setting that goes from idle-to-on when a signal is seen. But, they will stay "on" for a good 10 minutes (I haven't really measured the exact time) before going back to idle, if they don't see a signal. Your amp seems very sensitive with no time delay.

BTW... your Avatar! That has to be one of the greatest starting scenes of any movie. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


I don’t have another turntable darn it. I’m trying to get my dad’s unused (and needing some repair) Thorens but it is currently 1500 miles away.

If I am playing a record and I lift the tone arm (using the lever) and then place the needle back on the record, it will play for a fraction of a second and then click off. It also happens but less frequently at the start of a record.
 
ear4audio said:
My guess is that it's happening when the mute switch in the turntable is deactivated when the stylus drops. The muting switch on my Dual was causing a loud pop when it was deactivated. It turned out the capacitor needed replacing (in the turntable) but the pop could be causing the the trip in another part of your system.
Click to expand...
Yep. That's my bet too. Modern AVR receivers attempt to protect their processors and your speakers when they sense a DC surge, and they do that by disengaging relays (which you can hear). The Dual 1229 has a mute switch (often faulty or dirty) and a rogue arc-suppressor capacitor on the switch could sure trigger a DC surge on shut-off and cause the receiver to temporarily go into protect mode. If your AVR had a DC offset problem, it would enter protection mode altogether for any source. It's hard to miss and it doesn't do that, so deal with the 1229 first.
 
I've had similar happen, it was a subsonic pulse from the stylus landing or lifting. Popped the fuses on an amp that had a less than effective protection circuit but a somewhat sensitive one will kick out.

Might want to check the tracking force on that. If is too high the stylus will collapse a fair bit as it sets down and that can make a big low frequency output. Also might want to crank the volume down when changing albums. Before I added the subsonic filter to my own setup I had problems with the sub bottoming out when the arm dropped.
 
I think you might be onto something. It was happening intermittently while listening to a jazz album just now. It seemed like it was happening on the same parts of the record (if I went back to replay a portion of the record I missed because of the dropout. It also happened when I placed the stylus into my oxnow cleaner. I also noticed if I drop the needle very gently with the tone arm lever, it is less likely to trigger.

I will check my tracking force but it should be good. How did you fix your issue? Thanks!

gadget73 said:
I've had similar happen, it was a subsonic pulse from the stylus landing or lifting. Popped the fuses on an amp that had a less than effective protection circuit but a somewhat sensitive one will kick out.

Might want to check the tracking force on that. If is too high the stylus will collapse a fair bit as it sets down and that can make a big low frequency output. Also might want to crank the volume down when changing albums. Before I added the subsonic filter to my own setup I had problems with the sub bottoming out when the arm dropped.
Click to expand...
 
I’m going to dig into the Dual and check the DC offsets in the Pioneer this weekend.

More clues for those following along: I just played an Oliver Nelson record and the receiver tripped about 15 times while the record was playing. Just played through all of side 1 of Moondance and it only happened once. It also happened when I placed the stylus into my oxnow cleaner. I also noticed if I drop the needle very gently with the tone arm lever, it is less likely to trigger.
 
mhjmhjones said:
if I lift the cart off the record and then put it back down on the record, it causes what I am assuming is one of the relays in the receiver to switch off for a few seconds and then back on.
Click to expand...

The muting switch in your 1229 is activated only during cycling (starting automatically and / or end of record) If the receiver protection circuit is activated simply by lifting the tonearm and placing it down manually, the problem is not in the Dual's muting switch. It's an interesting problem you have there.
 
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LF240 said:
The muting switch in your 1229 is activated only during cycling (starting automatically and / or end of record) If the receiver protection circuit is activated simply by lifting the tonearm and placing it down manually, the problem is not in the Dual's muting switch. It's an interesting problem you have there.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Do you think it could be related to grounding or power supply or static or maybe dirty relays in the receiver? The problem just started a couple weeks ago. It worked fine for years and several winters before. Did you see gadget73's reply about a subsonic pulse?

  • I do have a lot of static this time of year, ever though we run a cool humidifier in the room where the system is.
  • I have the TT power hooked into a separate power strip than the rest of my system. I think I did that because I had a hum issue. It's a basic power strip.
  • The ground is hooked into my Parasound Zphono preamp. The receiver doesn't have a ground. I also have a ground on a Sansui AU-888 I use to power a set of AR-3as in a second zone - I could try using that ground.
Figures - before I saw your post, I unhooked and brought the TT down to work on it, which is always a hassle. But I'll at least clean the mute switch while I have it unhooked.
 
mhjmhjones said:
I will check my tracking force but it should be good. How did you fix your issue? Thanks!
Click to expand...

two ways. Mostly I started using the mute switch on my preamp before messing with the arm. I also added a subsonic filter to the mix at a later point.
 
My tracking force was 1.78g. The recommended tracking force is 1.5-2.0g (Nagaoka MP-110).

gadget73 said:
I've had similar happen, it was a subsonic pulse from the stylus landing or lifting. Popped the fuses on an amp that had a less than effective protection circuit but a somewhat sensitive one will kick out.

Might want to check the tracking force on that. If is too high the stylus will collapse a fair bit as it sets down and that can make a big low frequency output. Also might want to crank the volume down when changing albums. Before I added the subsonic filter to my own setup I had problems with the sub bottoming out when the arm dropped.
Click to expand...
 
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