Turntable (or something) has started tripping a relay (assumed) in my receiver when the needle drops

[Montycat]

I wonder if the protection relay is the problem? If the circuit there is tentative due to corrosion or tarnish maybe the least amount of unexpected surge causes it to open.

I have successfully replaced relays or even opened them up, without even unsoldering, to clean the contacts.

 

[LF240]

What was the point of sending the OP to test the speaker terminals for DC when it's obviously not outputting anything when in protection mode???

It was suggested earlier in the thread, not by me, that "Too much DC offset can trigger the protection relays." I have heard of this before, but don't claim to be an expert on the subject. I replied that seeing the numbers would be interesting. When the OP wanted to learn to check the offset, why would I not help him?

Cool?

 

[tnsilver]

why would I not help him?

Because when you know nothing about something and give advice about it to a person who knows nothing about it - you are not helping. At best, you're not escalating a problem. For the record, with a DC protection circuit kicking in, there's no output to the speaker terminals. That's how protection circuits protect. If you're measuring DC at the terminals - the unit is not in protection mode. Besides, there wasn't a general problem with the DC protection circuit, or the unit would shut off for good and require a reset. It was a single source intermittent problem. If you really needed to know DC levels, you'd have to measure before the protection circuit.

 

[LF240]

Because when you know nothing about something and give advice about it to a person who knows nothing about it - you are not helping. At best, you're not escalating a problem.

I helped him with what I knew how to help him with, a simple dc offset check. Period. I do know something about that as I've been doing it for 30 years now, thank you. Perhaps the poster who suggested that a high dc offset can trip the protection relay will elaborate on it for us.

 

[tnsilver]

Excessive DC can sure trip the protection relay, but after 30 years at it, you surely know that once it's tripped you won't see anything at the speaker terminals - right? Anyhoo, This is getting off topic. I'm beginning to think it's a simple miss-configuration problem. These AVR's got too smart for their own good over the years and proper setup according to the owner's manual can be a handful. Perhaps it would be wise to revise the speaker sizes, impedance restrictions (if any) and the channels they're hooked to, as well as cancelling out any unneeded bi-amping configurations. A general factory reset would be my starting point, after downloading the owner's manual.

 

[rothwellaudio]

I've had similar happen, it was a subsonic pulse from the stylus landing or lifting.

Do you see the woofers pumping? Thats usually an indicator of rumble or feedback, and protection circuits are prone to tripping when that kind of thing happens.

Yes, I think that is the most likely source of the problem - subsonic noise from the cartridge. The RIAA eq can create very large amplitude subsonic noise which will trip an amp's protection circuit. Flapping speaker cones are a tell-tale sign that there's excessive subsonic noise.

 

[Fishead]

Post #32 suggests the OP has resolved the problem, or at least for now, with a change of the configuration of speaker sizes in the receiver's menus.

I'm going to make a suggestion based on what I have read so far.......Should the problem return, it might be useful to run your receiver in "Bypass" mode, which most AV receivers have a version of although it's called something different across brands (e.g. I think Yamaha calls it "Direct" while my Rotel calls it BYPASS). (Edit note* Yours calls it "Stream Direct") This circumvents all the digital circuits that might be causing the problem. MOST IMPORTANTLY, and this is the intended takeaway from this post, is that YOU WILL NOW BE LISTENING TO AN ANALOG SIGNAL STRAIGHT FROM YOUR CARTRIDGE>PHONO-PRE>PREAMP>POWER AMP>SPEAKERS!!!

Most, not all, choose to listen to records at least in part to experience analog sound without the signal being converted to digital and back to analog. When you are listening in the way you have described, the signal will be coming from your cartridge to the phono-pre. If you are using any of the processing tools your receiver offers, such as the large/small speaker menu you have spoken of, the signal is most likely routed through your receiver's digital circuitry in order to carry out those functions. This means the analog signal is converted to a digital signal after it leaves your phono-pre and will therefore sound like a digital signal upon completing its journey to your speakers.

If that is what you desire, then you are good as gold. If, instead, you wish to take advantage of what most consider a sonic benefit by keeping your signal analog straight through, you will need to put your receiver in the bypass mode, or whatever that is called on your particular make/model. Should you wish to compare the sound, and I highly suggest you do, between the two just switch back and forth between bypass and a digital mode, for example 5-channel stereo or whatever mode you had been running in. The difference, at least to my ears and in my case, is startling!

I'm just mentioning this here because for several years I was under the misconception that my preamp (Rotel RSP-1570) in 5 channel stereo was still in an analog mode.....NOT! 5-channel stereo is indeed a DSP (digital signal processing) mode and I finally figured it out through some experiments with subwoofer connections. WOW! What a difference it made!

I know this is a bit off-topic, but couldn't help commenting when I saw the likelihood that this was what you were doing and remembered my own delight upon making that discovery and subsequent changes to how I have things configured. Give it a try, and should your initial issue have been due to some glitch in the processing of the signal, you might also thereby have discovered a fix to that in bypassing it all.

Happy listening, amigo!

PS - Most of the home theater receivers I'm aware of will only send the (BYPASS-DIRECT) analog signal to your FRONT or MAIN speakers. Don't let that slow you down because if you get things set up correctly, you will never miss your center/rears (which will all still be available for digital sources). The fronts will produce a sound stage that will take you where you wanna be if you're sitting in the proper listening position and have your room modestly well-appointed. Should you have a subwoofer, you will NOT be able to use the typical connection because that goes back through your digital circuitry. You can remedy this, however, by connecting the sub/subs to a ZONE pre-out. This has the added advantage of being able, with your remote from your listening position, to control the volume level of the sub/subs without having to move out of the listening position.

 

[mhjmhjones]

Excessive DC can sure trip the protection relay, but after 30 years at it, you surely know that once it's tripped you won't see anything at the speaker terminals - right? Anyhoo, This is getting off topic. I'm beginning to think it's a simple miss-configuration problem. These AVR's got too smart for their own good over the years and proper setup according to the owner's manual can be a handful. Perhaps it would be wise to revise the speaker sizes, impedance restrictions (if any) and the channels they're hooked to, as well as cancelling out any unneeded bi-amping configurations. A general factory reset would be my starting point, after downloading the owner's manual.

So the problem seems to have come back, but to a lesser degree, I think. Now, it is happening more when the stylus is lifting off the vinyl at the automatic return at the end of the record. I haven't played the Oliver Nelson record that was giving me the most trouble since the time I played it through without issue.

I ran the Detected Protection History test suggested by tnsilver. The results were:

68 DC detections
39 overload detections
0 detections of cord disconnection (DC and OL DET line) (simultaneous detections of DC and OVERLOAD)
0 detections of fan abnormalities
0 detections of abnormal temperature



So, it looks like there are some DC and overload problems? I do have the original owner's manual that is held together with tape, dogeared and full of my hand-written notes.

 

[mhjmhjones]

Yes, I think that is the most likely source of the problem - subsonic noise from the cartridge. The RIAA eq can create very large amplitude subsonic noise which will trip an amp's protection circuit. Flapping speaker cones are a tell-tale sign that there's excessive subsonic noise.

What can cause subsonic noise from a cartridge? It's a Nagaoka MP110 that is about 2-3 years old. I just put a new stylus on it back in December. Could it be the stylus?

 

[Mr Boochie]

What can cause subsonic noise from a cartridge? It's a Nagaoka MP110 that is about 2-3 years old. I just put a new stylus on it back in December. Could it be the stylus?

The stylus is picking up irregularities from the vinyl's pressing and external vibrations (like foot traffic).

Those DC and overload detection events on your amp's history doesn't sound good. May need a good amp tech?

 

[rothwellaudio]

What can cause subsonic noise from a cartridge? It's a Nagaoka MP110 that is about 2-3 years old. I just put a new stylus on it back in December. Could it be the stylus?

Any movement of the stylus produces a voltage. The compliance of the cartridge suspension and the effective mass of the arm form a resonant system, which is why the compliance and arm mass should be chosen to work well with each other, but any stylus movement produces a voltage and the frequency can be extremely low. The RIAA eq boosts low frequencies by about 20dB more than the midrange which means that subsonic frequencies are bound to be present unless they're filtered out somewhere.
It used to be quite common for preamps to include a subsonic filter or a rumble filter, but they're less common these days.
Do you see any cone flapping when you lower the stylus onto the record?
Btw, the new stylus may have a stiffer or looser suspension than the previous one, hence the change in the amount of subsonic noise. Do you still have the old one? If so, you could put it back on and see if the problem goes away. If it does, that strongly suggests that the new cartridge compliance is less than optimum.

 

[mhjmhjones]

I was listening to phono in STEREO setting - switched to Stream Direct. Now I know what that listening mode is for and will read more about it. Cheers and thank you! Unfortunately, it didn't solve the problem. It happened when the stylus dropped on the record I am playing now. It made it all the way through Shine on You Crazy Diamond (with a couple sax solos), but then dropped of twice at the beginning of Welcome to the Machine.

I posted a few other updates this morning. I don't know what DC or overload detections are. I am wondering if it has to do with dirty relays or a new stylus on my cartridge that I just put on in December. I will check that it is seated properly.

Post #32 suggests the OP has resolved the problem, or at least for now, with a change of the configuration of speaker sizes in the receiver's menus.

I'm going to make a suggestion based on what I have read so far.......Should the problem return, it might be useful to run your receiver in "Bypass" mode, which most AV receivers have a version of although it's called something different across brands (e.g. I think Yamaha calls it "Direct" while my Rotel calls it BYPASS). (Edit note* Yours calls it "Stream Direct") This circumvents all the digital circuits that might be causing the problem. MOST IMPORTANTLY, and this is the intended takeaway from this post, is that YOU WILL NOW BE LISTENING TO AN ANALOG SIGNAL STRAIGHT FROM YOUR CARTRIDGE>PHONO-PRE>PREAMP>POWER AMP>SPEAKERS!!!

Most, not all, choose to listen to records at least in part to experience analog sound without the signal being converted to digital and back to analog. When you are listening in the way you have described, the signal will be coming from your cartridge to the phono-pre. If you are using any of the processing tools your receiver offers, such as the large/small speaker menu you have spoken of, the signal is most likely routed through your receiver's digital circuitry in order to carry out those functions. This means the analog signal is converted to a digital signal after it leaves your phono-pre and will therefore sound like a digital signal upon completing its journey to your speakers.

If that is what you desire, then you are good as gold. If, instead, you wish to take advantage of what most consider a sonic benefit by keeping your signal analog straight through, you will need to put your receiver in the bypass mode, or whatever that is called on your particular make/model. Should you wish to compare the sound, and I highly suggest you do, between the two just switch back and forth between bypass and a digital mode, for example 5-channel stereo or whatever mode you had been running in. The difference, at least to my ears and in my case, is startling!

I'm just mentioning this here because for several years I was under the misconception that my preamp (Rotel RSP-1570) in 5 channel stereo was still in an analog mode.....NOT! 5-channel stereo is indeed a DSP (digital signal processing) mode and I finally figured it out through some experiments with subwoofer connections. WOW! What a difference it made!

I know this is a bit off-topic, but couldn't help commenting when I saw the likelihood that this was what you were doing and remembered my own delight upon making that discovery and subsequent changes to how I have things configured. Give it a try, and should your initial issue have been due to some glitch in the processing of the signal, you might also thereby have discovered a fix to that in bypassing it all.

Happy listening, amigo!

PS - Most of the home theater receivers I'm aware of will only send the (BYPASS-DIRECT) analog signal to your FRONT or MAIN speakers. Don't let that slow you down because if you get things set up correctly, you will never miss your center/rears (which will all still be available for digital sources). The fronts will produce a sound stage that will take you where you wanna be if you're sitting in the proper listening position and have your room modestly well-appointed. Should you have a subwoofer, you will NOT be able to use the typical connection because that goes back through your digital circuitry. You can remedy this, however, by connecting the sub/subs to a ZONE pre-out. This has the added advantage of being able, with your remote from your listening position, to control the volume level of the sub/subs without having to move out of the listening position.

 

[mhjmhjones]

I put the old stylus on and it still happened on the same parts of Welcome to the Machine - happens during this static-sounding effect near the begging of the song. I will check for cone flapping my next break.

Any movement of the stylus produces a voltage. The compliance of the cartridge suspension and the effective mass of the arm form a resonant system, which is why the compliance and arm mass should be chosen to work well with each other, but any stylus movement produces a voltage and the frequency can be extremely low. The RIAA eq boosts low frequencies by about 20dB more than the midrange which means that subsonic frequencies are bound to be present unless they're filtered out somewhere.
It used to be quite common for preamps to include a subsonic filter or a rumble filter, but they're less common these days.
Do you see any cone flapping when you lower the stylus onto the record?
Btw, the new stylus may have a stiffer or looser suspension than the previous one, hence the change in the amount of subsonic noise. Do you still have the old one? If so, you could put it back on and see if the problem goes away. If it does, that strongly suggests that the new cartridge compliance is less than optimum.

 

[tnsilver]

I am wondering if it has to do with dirty relays or a new stylus on my cartridge that I just put on in December.

I think the likelihood of that is about the same as it being related to the fuel injectors and coolant pump. Overloads and DC spikes go hand in hand with the later being a consequence of the first as it keeps getting harder to filter the DC component off an increased AC signal. Filtering with capacitors is charge/discharge time related process so it makes sense to have about twice the DC related protection events than overloads. Get rid of the overload root cause and you're likely to get rid of the problem altogether.

So what can cause an overload? I don't know for sure. For starters, it may be the Zphono overloading the vsx81 pre-amp through whatever line level input it's connected to. Check the gain levels on the pre-amp, it may be too high. Let the Zphono do the RIAA equalization and the vsx81 do the amplifying. Any volume knob on that thing by any chance? Try to use it to decrease the output.

It may also be an internal overload caused by excessive external current draw. As mentioned earlier, check your speakers impedance. Be aware that 4Ω speakers draw twice the current from the amp as 8Ω speakers do, hence stressing it twice as much. That's a common overload root cause, especially at challenging volume levels and energetic music passages. That way, an external load can cause an internal overload. Avoid the 4Ω speakers for a while, if you're using any, just for tests sake.

Unfortunately, many modern AVR's inadvertently allow for an internal overload to occur as a result of inappropriate small/large speaker configurations. This may alter the internal channel power allocation and digital sound processing logic in odd ways, which can then lead to failures. Don't assume your AVR knows better than you what speakers you're using and to where they're connected. Consult the owner's manual about the definitions of 'small' and 'large' speakers and follow their connection recommendations.

 

[mhjmhjones]

The only thing to fiddle with on the ZPhono is an AC Polarity switch which has "normal" and "invert" options. It is currently on "normal". It also has a MM/MC switch, which is set to MM. If I flip the MM/MC switch while music is playing, it triggers the receiver. I just flipped the AC polarity switch to "invert" to see what happens. https://parasound.com/pdfs/ZphonoManual.pdf

Edit: It still happens at the end of the record with the polarity set to "invert."

I think the likelihood of that is about the same as it being related to the fuel injectors and coolant pump. Overloads and DC spikes go hand in hand with the later being a consequence of the first as it keeps getting harder to filter the DC component off an increased AC signal. Filtering with capacitors is charge/discharge time related process so it makes sense to have about twice the DC related protection events than overloads. Get rid of the overload root cause and you're likely to get rid of the problem altogether.

So what can cause an overload? I don't know for sure. For starters, it may be the Zphono overloading the vsx81 pre-amp through whatever line level input it's connected to. Check the gain levels on the pre-amp, it may be too high. Let the Zphono do the RIAA equalization and the vsx81 do the amplifying. Any volume knob on that thing by any chance? Try to use it to decrease the output.

It may also be an internal overload caused by excessive external current draw. As mentioned earlier, check your speakers impedance. Be aware that 4Ω speakers draw twice the current from the amp as 8Ω speakers do, hence stressing it twice as much. That's a common overload root cause, especially at challenging volume levels and energetic music passages. That way, an external load can cause an internal overload. Avoid the 4Ω speakers for a while, if you're using any, just for tests sake.

Unfortunately, many modern AVR's inadvertently allow for an internal overload to occur as a result of inappropriate small/large speaker configurations. This may alter the internal channel power allocation and digital sound processing logic in odd ways, which can then lead to failures. Don't assume your AVR knows better than you what speakers you're using and to where they're connected. Consult the owner's manual about the definitions of 'small' and 'large' speakers and follow their connection recommendations.

 

[tnsilver]

I just flipped the AC polarity switch to "invert" to see what happens.

That's got nothing to do with gain levels. If you're possibly overloading the vsx81 with the 46dB of the Zphono's MM section, you're definitely overloading it with the 61dB of the MC section, so just don't. How is the Zphono connected to the vsx81 - which input?

 

[rothwellaudio]

I'd be very surprised if the problem turns out not to be subsonic noise from the turntable.

 

[mhjmhjones]

I just ran that test again at it went up to 93 DC Detections but overload detections remained at 39. When I google "Pioneer DC detections" the results are all service manuals and my service manual doesn't say what that means or how to fix it.

I do use the multi-room function on this receiver and I have the output for that going into a Sansui AU-888, which drives AR-3a 4Ω speakers. My next test will be to turn the multi room off and see what happens.

I think the likelihood of that is about the same as it being related to the fuel injectors and coolant pump. Overloads and DC spikes go hand in hand with the later being a consequence of the first as it keeps getting harder to filter the DC component off an increased AC signal. Filtering with capacitors is charge/discharge time related process so it makes sense to have about twice the DC related protection events than overloads. Get rid of the overload root cause and you're likely to get rid of the problem altogether.

So what can cause an overload? I don't know for sure. For starters, it may be the Zphono overloading the vsx81 pre-amp through whatever line level input it's connected to. Check the gain levels on the pre-amp, it may be too high. Let the Zphono do the RIAA equalization and the vsx81 do the amplifying. Any volume knob on that thing by any chance? Try to use it to decrease the output.

It may also be an internal overload caused by excessive external current draw. As mentioned earlier, check your speakers impedance. Be aware that 4Ω speakers draw twice the current from the amp as 8Ω speakers do, hence stressing it twice as much. That's a common overload root cause, especially at challenging volume levels and energetic music passages. That way, an external load can cause an internal overload. Avoid the 4Ω speakers for a while, if you're using any, just for tests sake.

Unfortunately, many modern AVR's inadvertently allow for an internal overload to occur as a result of inappropriate small/large speaker configurations. This may alter the internal channel power allocation and digital sound processing logic in odd ways, which can then lead to failures. Don't assume your AVR knows better than you what speakers you're using and to where they're connected. Consult the owner's manual about the definitions of 'small' and 'large' speakers and follow their connection recommendations.

 

[mhjmhjones]

That's got nothing to do with gain levels. If you're possibly overloading the vsx81 with the 46dB of the Zphono's MM section, you're definitely overloading it with the 61dB of the MC section, so just don't. How is the Zphono connected to the vsx81 - which input?

It's connected to the DVR/VCR 1 input.

 

[mhjmhjones]

How do you fix a subsonic noise problem? As far as I can tell, there are no electronics in the TT, It's all mechanical and basic switches, but I'm very low on the electronics skill scale.

Something like this: https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/60042/DB_Systems-DB_Systems_Subsonic_Filter-Turntable_Accessories ?

I'd be very surprised if the problem turns out not to be subsonic noise from the turntable.