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Turntable (or something) has started tripping a relay (assumed) in my receiver when the needle drops

Good points. I wasn’t sure if there were different relays for multi-room and the main speakers. I don’t even know what a relay is to be honest.

I was just thinking about it - we haven’t ruled out that the problem could be a subsonic noise issue with the turntable. No idea what to do about that in terms of doing something to the TT. I will try a low cost subsonic filter and see if that has any effect.
 
Don't get me wrong here @rothwellaudio is most likely spot on and the fault may very well be triggered by some energetic peak like, for example, a sub-sonic abnormality that's either embedded in the groove or is extrinsic to the TT. Energetically, that is a very demanding signal to amplify! That, however, is just the trigger. There's absolutely zero reason for a 100wpc modern AVR to be tripped shut into protection by an otherwise walk in the park glitch. The fact is - when you avoid the 2nd zone, no amount of sub-sonic frequencies (assuming that's what it is) could influence your playback whatsoever. It's only when you enable that zone II feature, when things start to get rough. No sir, the problem is not sub-sonics. At best, that's just what's triggering the problem.
 
You'd figure with a total of 356 pages of manuals they'd bother to provide some biasing routine info, or at least show you a couple of test points to measure DC - but no... It's all about smart-ass nifty features that 99% of their customers would never ever use because they could live to be 120 and still not finish reading the darn thing.
 
Mr Boochie said:
Can subsonic frequencies trigger a DC detection? Isn't subsonic still AC in nature?

Thanks!
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at a low enough frequency it behaves enough like DC that it will trigger. The output ends up + or - for a long enough period of time to trigger the protection circuits. The specifics depends entirely on how touchy the protect circuit is and exactly how long it needs to activate but with a lot of things if you feed then a sub-10hz signal at enough volume it'll kick out.
 
gadget73 said:
at a low enough frequency it behaves enough like DC that it will trigger. The output ends up + or - for a long enough period of time to trigger the protection circuits. The specifics depends entirely on how touchy the protect circuit is and exactly how long it needs to activate but with a lot of things if you feed then a sub-10hz signal at enough volume it'll kick out.
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Thanks, for the explanation. Then, I suppose he should try a sub-sonic filter. :)
 
What should I look for in a subsonic filter? Would this one work?: https://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Lab...sprefix=subsonic+filter,electronics,46&sr=1-2

I am now toying with the idea of getting a new receiver in the $1000-1500 price range and selling the VSX-81 to someone who doesn't need a second zone phono capability. And selling the ZPhono. So, I don't want to spend a whole lot on a subsonic filter. If I can get it to work, I will try to stretch a couple more years out of the VSX-81!
 
The Harrisons are passive, so they'd have to sit between the phono preamp and the main amp. Can't use those between the turntable and amp. Should be able to use them in the tape loop though.

The one I use is an active filter built on an Elliott Sound Products board that I put in a cheap case from Amazon. All DIY type stuff, which I realize not everyone is into. Active filters are much sharper than passives though, and response under 20hz falls off a cliff with that setup. I'm sure others exist, I just have no experience with any of them so I won't offer any opinions.

honestly if you feel like taking a trip across the bridge sometime, I can loan you my subsonic filter to see if that makes it behave. I can see Delaware City from my front door.

Might be worth investigating whether there is a hardware solution first though. Cartridge compliance mismatch, mechanical noise in the table, that kind of thing.
 
gadget73 said:
The Harrisons are passive, so they'd have to sit between the phono preamp and the main amp.
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Hey Gadget, learning something new every day and not to derail the thread but I think this is useful to the OP as well as the rest of us who might not know too much about filters.

Questions: Why can't you put the filter from the tonearm RCAs into the phonostage? Why must it be used after the phonostage? And, if as in my case, there is the phonostage output that goes to the preamp and then the signal goes to the power amp. In this scenario, where would the filter best sit?

Thanks!
 
Fishead said:
Questions: Why can't you put the filter from the tonearm RCAs into the phonostage? Why must it be used after the phonostage? And, if as in my case, there is the phonostage output that goes to the preamp and then the signal goes to the power amp. In this scenario, where would the filter best sit?
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Those filters are 12dB/octave, ie second order, which suggests they are a series inductor and a parallel capacitor. They will work in a textbook fashion as long as they're driven from a zero source impedance, but being driven from a moving magnet cartridge is something else entirely. An MM cartridge has considerable resistance and inductance and requires a particular load capacitance and resistance to achieve its specified performance, and using those filters will mess all that up.
Those passive filters would be best between the output of the phonostage and input to the line preamp.

Edit: Sorry, I described a low pass filter above. I should have said "series capacitor and a parallel inductor".
 
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mhjmhjones said:
I am now toying with the idea of getting a new receiver in the $1000-1500 price range and selling the VSX-81 to someone who doesn't need a second zone phono capability.
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That might work, but the smoking gun here is the zone II feature. A sub-sonic filter could mask the trigger of the problem but IMO it won't cure it. I can't help but think this is a simple issue. I don't know what it is, but I'd check all speaker cables looking for a stray copper strand, or try to replace the interconnects to the Sui, just to make sure they're not faulty. I'd think back and try to remember what I did before the problem showed up and have a go at reversing that. I'd even try to use an extension cord to feed the Sui off a different power socket in the house. Those power strips can sometimes cause current overloads on their own.
 
I'm inclined to agree, while subsonic filters are cool and all, it would be better to find and fix the real problem vs using an electronic band-aid if at all possible .

I'm using one to help hide a mismatch between my subwoofer driver and the box it's in. If I bump the turntable the sub bottoms out. I know what the problem is, and I'm also aware of how motivated I am to really do anything about it since it sounds pretty decent when its not banging off the bottom of the magnet.
 
tnsilver said:
That might work, but the smoking gun here is the zone II feature. A sub-sonic filter could mask the trigger of the problem but IMO it won't cure it. I can't help but think this is a simple issue. I don't know what it is, but I'd check all speaker cables looking for a stray copper strand, or try to replace the interconnects to the Sui, just to make sure they're not faulty. I'd think back and try to remember what I did before the problem showed up and have a go at reversing that. I'd even try to use an extension cord to feed the Sui off a different power socket in the house. Those power strips can sometimes cause current overloads on their own.
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Good suggestions. Everything was fine and then it wasn't. Something changed, rule out everything external to the receiver. Would be good if you were able to substitute another receiver of like kind which would help to point to the source of the problem. But, for now at least you know how to play it without issues.
 
I am going to try this plan of attack. I did a lot of system tweaking - hooking up new components, maybe swapping out interconnects, adding HDMI interconnects around the same time. I can't for the life of me remember when the problem started in relation to when I did all that tweaking.


tnsilver said:
That might work, but the smoking gun here is the zone II feature. A sub-sonic filter could mask the trigger of the problem but IMO it won't cure it. I can't help but think this is a simple issue. I don't know what it is, but I'd check all speaker cables looking for a stray copper strand, or try to replace the interconnects to the Sui, just to make sure they're not faulty. I'd think back and try to remember what I did before the problem showed up and have a go at reversing that. I'd even try to use an extension cord to feed the Sui off a different power socket in the house. Those power strips can sometimes cause current overloads on their own.
Click to expand...
 
mhjmhjones said:
I can't for the life of me remember when the problem started in relation to when I did all that tweaking.
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You could start over from scratch. You'd want only the ZPhono and 2 channels hooked up, and the minimal configuration with the Sui hooked up to zone II for tests. Isolate the Sui power supply from the Pio's. Have them connected to different power sockets in the house. Nothing else connected to the Pio! If your zone II fails at this stage, it's easier to isolate the problem, to swap inter-connects and find out what's going on. If it works, gradually and methodically start adding up channels and then components, one at a time, with testing (with that famous WYWH vinyl) in between. If it fails, you'd know what's causing it. If it doesn't, we can all breath again.
 
I had some time to work on this morning. No luck. Not yet anyway.

I connected to Sansui to a different power strip and a different outlet altogether (running an extension cord through the middle of the living room - wife loves). I swapped out the interconnects going from the ZPhono to the Pio, and the interconnects going from the Pio to the Sansui. Basically unhooked all other inputs (one at a time) and outputs. The only thing I haven't tried yet is unhooking the surround speakers from the Pio, but I'm using banana plugs for those and they all look clean. So now I think I have deduced that the problem is inside the Pio, or inside the ZPhono. Something that used to work, but now does not.

tnsilver said:
You could start over from scratch. You'd want only the ZPhono and 2 channels hooked up, and the minimal configuration with the Sui hooked up to zone II for tests. Isolate the Sui power supply from the Pio's. Have them connected to different power sockets in the house. Nothing else connected to the Pio! If your zone II fails at this stage, it's easier to isolate the problem, to swap inter-connects and find out what's going on. If it works, gradually and methodically start adding up channels and then components, one at a time, with testing (with that famous WYWH vinyl) in between. If it fails, you'd know what's causing it. If it doesn't, we can all breath again.
Click to expand...
 
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