Turntable (or something) has started tripping a relay (assumed) in my receiver when the needle drops

[mhjmhjones]

If the relay is being tripped while music is playing, and not just when the needle is dropping, do you think that could be a subsonic pulse? It happened a bunch of times while playing an Oliver Nelson jazz record but only happened once while playing Moondance. It seemed like certain parts of the music caused it to happen. When I lifted the needle and very gently placed it down on an earlier part of the record, it seemed like it was happening over and over again at the same point on the record. That was just an observation/speculation and not documented.

two ways. Mostly I started using the mute switch on my preamp before messing with the arm. I also added a subsonic filter to the mix at a later point.

 

[Fishead]

The muting switch in your 1229 is activated only during cycling (starting automatically and / or end of record) If the receiver protection circuit is activated simply by lifting the tonearm and placing it down manually, the problem is not in the Dual's muting switch. It's an interesting problem you have there.

True. I guess I'd start with the really simple stuff, and stuff that could be causing a surge as such that would trip your protection circuit in your amp. Have you used anything to remove static from the surface of the record? The way this is behaving, happening lots on one record and only once on another, suggests that it has something to do with the media so that would be a place to start. I have a Zerostat gun for that, but you can use the unscented dryer sheets also.....just lightly run one over the record surface should do it. Then, see if that changes the frequency of the problem with, for instance, the jazz album you mention. After that, I'm looking at the contacts everywhere (using Deoxit D5) beginning with the sled on your Dual, which are often culprits of a variety of issues, the pins and clips where the tonearm wires are connected, etc. etc. etc. After doing all that simple stuff and the problem persists, then I'm off into the deep woods and chasing down DC offset issues and the like (and trying as you are to find help on the net with that). Hang in there, the cream rises to the top.....so do solutions to problems with persistence!

 

[Ken Boyd]

Decrease the bass level on the amp and see if the helps. Most often amps will go into protection mode when they sense peaks. Those peaks will be most likely demands on the bass or in the case of the turntable subsonic demands, those that require your bass drivers to pump like when you see a needle drop or warps in a record. A decrease in the bass level or switching on a subsonic filter will reduce those jumps in the power requirements of your amp.

 

[LF240]

Do you think it could be related to grounding or power supply or static or maybe dirty relays in the receiver? The problem just started a couple weeks ago. It worked fine for years and several winters before. Did you see gadget73's reply about a subsonic pulse?

It seems to me that all of the above could be a possible culprit. It would be interesting to see what your DC offset numbers are. Did you get a chance to look at the link posted earlier about how to do this? Got a multimeter? It seems that the relay is seeing a rush of DC from somewhere. This could also be due to cold solder joints and / or bad caps.

It would be helpful if you could try pumping any other source through the receiver (CD player, phone, tape, etc) and see if the problem persists.

 

[mhjmhjones]

Yes…the confounded sled. Those contacts with the PCB in the headshell give me more problems. Anytime I mess with that it’s sure to cause me headaches. But I’ve gotten better at that.

For static, I do have an older zerostat. But these records I played last night were just washed in an ultrasonic cleaner yesterday or the day before. I never can tell if I should be squeezing while pointing at the record or releasing while pointing at the record. I’ve read to do one or the other.

True. I guess I'd start with the really simple stuff, and stuff that could be causing a surge as such that would trip your protection circuit in your amp. Have you used anything to remove static from the surface of the record? The way this is behaving, happening lots on one record and only once on another, suggests that it has something to do with the media so that would be a place to start. I have a Zerostat gun for that, but you can use the unscented dryer sheets also.....just lightly run one over the record surface should do it. Then, see if that changes the frequency of the problem with, for instance, the jazz album you mention. After that, I'm looking at the contacts everywhere (using Deoxit D5) beginning with the sled on your Dual, which are often culprits of a variety of issues, the pins and clips where the tonearm wires are connected, etc. etc. etc. After doing all that simple stuff and the problem persists, then I'm off into the deep woods and chasing down DC offset issues and the like (and trying as you are to find help on the net with that). Hang in there, the cream rises to the top.....so do solutions to problems with persistence!

 

[mhjmhjones]

I will try that.

Decrease the bass level on the amp and see if the helps. Most often amps will go into protection mode when they sense peaks. Those peaks will be most likely demands on the bass or in the case of the turntable subsonic demands, those that require your bass drivers to pump like when you see a needle drop or warps in a record. A decrease in the bass level or switching on a subsonic filter will reduce those jumps in the power requirements of your amp.

 

[mhjmhjones]

It has only happened with the phono as far as I have noticed.

I did look at that post and just put a question on there because I was confused about something. I do have the multimeter out and ready to go. I don’t know how to use it very much but I guess I can get by!

Here is the mute switch a couple minutes ago:

It seems to me that all of the above could be a possible culprit. It would be interesting to see what your DC offset numbers are. Did you get a chance to look at the link posted earlier about how to do this? Got a multimeter? It seems that the relay is seeing a rush of DC from somewhere. This could also be due to cold solder joints and / or bad caps.

It would be helpful if you could try pumping any other source through the receiver (CD player, phone, tape, etc) and see if the problem persists.

 

[LF240]

This quote is from the original post for this thread 250 pages ago on how to check my DC Offset and I have a question. Step 1 says to disconnect the speakers. But in step 6 below, "6. Set your meter to read DC, and set to a low scale (300mV scale is common) Connect directly to the Pos and Neg of the speaker terminals" - does he mean that I connect the multimeter to the speaker output terminals on the amp/receiver, and let it sit for 10 minutes? Just want to be sure that I am reading that right.

Yes. Disconnect the speaker cables and attach the probes to the speaker terminals on the back of the receiver. Do this for each channel. Volume down, tone controls centered, and select a source that is not in use, like Aux. You can leave the probes on during the warmup, no problem.

 

[mhjmhjones]

Set the multimeter as such?

Yes. Disconnect the speaker cables and attach the probes to the speaker terminals on the back of the receiver. Do this for each channel. Volume down, tone controls centered, and select a source that is not in use, like Aux. You can leave the probes on during the warmup, no problem.

 

[LF240]

Yup, that's it.

 

[Fishead]

This could also be due to cold solder joints and / or bad caps.

Yep, or bad contacts.....

But these records I played last night were just washed in an ultrasonic cleaner yesterday or the day before.

Doesn't have anything, or at least not much to do with static electricity which can build up by simply taking the record out of a sleeve given the right (wrong) conditions. My thought is, again, try the easy stuff first and try using your Zerostat. Here is the "Owner's Manual," such that it is, and you simply follow the directions:

https://www.2spi.com/catalog/documents/Zerostst-Use_Instructions.pdf

Squeezing just slowly enough that the trigger does NOT produce a clicking sound and letting it out again at about the same speed as indicated in the manual should get you the desired result.

Do this on the Oliver Nelson album you had all the problems with and see if there is a difference? If not, move on to other stuff.....

 

[mhjmhjones]

When you say bad contacts, do you mean the RCA inputs/outputs?

Here's where I am now:

• I cleaned/deoxited/conditioned the mute switch connects (the parts where the metal connects to complete the circuit) in the turntable. I guess I'm using somewhat correct terminology.
• I cleaned/deoxited/conditioned the RCA output connectors on the TT
• I cleaned/deoxited/conditioned the sled pins and headshell PCB posts (metal connector strips) in the headshell.
• I hooked everything back up and connected the TT power cord to the same power strip I had been using. I did not reconnect the ground.

The problem persists. I'm definitely convinced it is the music that is causing this. It always happens during a sax note in Hoe-Down and a moment later during another sax solo. There is not a lot of bass in the music.


HOLD ON I MAY HAVE FIXED IT while I was writing this post! I took a break to figure out how to turn the bass down on the receiver - it doesn't have a potentiometer for bass, treble, etc. While I was doing that I noticed that the front speakers were set to small and I changed them to large- probably irrelevant but I am looking forward to if the Advents sound better now. But I also changed the surround back speaker settings to "Bi-amp front" because I want to get a second pair of Advents to stack....And now I just played through Hoe-down twice and It hasn't dropped out. So I don't know what I did but so far, something is working!

I'm still going to check the DC offsets since I'm in this, and I did shovel the snow from the driveway.

Yep, or bad contacts.....



Doesn't have anything, or at least not much to do with static electricity which can build up by simply taking the record out of a sleeve given the right (wrong) conditions. My thought is, again, try the easy stuff first and try using your Zerostat. Here is the "Owner's Manual," such that it is, and you simply follow the directions:

https://www.2spi.com/catalog/documents/Zerostst-Use_Instructions.pdf

Squeezing just slowly enough that the trigger does NOT produce a clicking sound and letting it out again at about the same speed as indicated in the manual should get you the desired result.

Do this on the Oliver Nelson album you had all the problems with and see if there is a difference? If not, move on to other stuff.....

 

[mhjmhjones]

Pioneer front right DC offset is 34.6. Front left is 11.8. More to come...

Center is 19.8. Surround right is 35.6. Surround left is 12.7.


If I'm doing it right.

 

[gadget73]

If the relay is being tripped while music is playing, and not just when the needle is dropping, do you think that could be a subsonic pulse? It happened a bunch of times while playing an Oliver Nelson jazz record but only happened once while playing Moondance. It seemed like certain parts of the music caused it to happen. When I lifted the needle and very gently placed it down on an earlier part of the record, it seemed like it was happening over and over again at the same point on the record. That was just an observation/speculation and not documented.

could be. Do you see the woofers pumping? Thats usually an indicator of rumble or feedback, and protection circuits are prone to tripping when that kind of thing happens.

Bass too high, speakers too close to the turntable, or mechanical problems in the turntable can all cause that. Usually cutting back the volume or bass will help with that, but it may not sound good with the bass cut way back. Useful as a quick test though.

 

[tnsilver]

Pioneer front right DC offset is 34.6. Front left is 11.8. More to come...
Center is 19.8. Surround right is 35.6. Surround left is 12.7.

Yes, OK, now what? Honestly, running you through that routine without telling you what to do about it wasn't, IMO, a useful idea at all. I've skimmed through the 272 pages of the vsx81 service manual and I still don't know what to do with it. It has no mention of a DC Offset adjustment routine and not even a biasing routine. Could I have missed it? Maybe, but the darn thing is 272 pages long and I'm in my 60's already. Most AVR's adjustment routines wants you at a specific source (usually line level) and a specific mode (typically stereo) for this kind of measurements but your guess is as good as mine on this one. The left and right differences aren't a treat but the overall DC levels aren't too high. We don't know what to do with it anyway.

What I did find out in the service manual, is that any protection related fault is being recorded by the processor and is retrievable through a feature called 'detected protection history'. It gives you a fault code that you can look up in the manual. This, in contrast to some arbitrary DC voltage readings, that none of us have an idea what to do with, is actually useful information. Look it up in the manual, run the diagnostics, tell us what the fault is.

 

[Fishead]

When you say bad contacts, do you mean the RCA inputs/outputs?

In this sense I was suggesting the contacts between the cartridge and tonearm, or the pins on the cartridge and the clips on the ends of the tonearm wires. Sorry, I was referencing a previous post I made but all the same, sounds like you have made some progress with discoveries that shed some light. Otherwise, I'd follow tnsilver's suggestions to find out more about the codes to see what is actually going on in the receiver.

 

[mhjmhjones]

I don’t have the service manual but I’ll find it. especially if the problem comes back.

Thanks to all who have helped out so far!

Yes, OK, now what? Honestly, running you through that routine without telling you what to do about it wasn't, IMO, a useful idea at all. I've skimmed through the 272 pages of the vsx81 service manual and I still don't know what to do with it. It has no mention of a DC Offset adjustment routine and not even a biasing routine. Could I have missed it? Maybe, but the darn thing is 272 pages long and I'm in my 60's already. Most AVR's adjustment routines wants you at a specific source (usually line level) and a specific mode (typically stereo) for this kind of measurements but your guess is as good as mine on this one. The left and right differences aren't a treat but the overall DC levels aren't too high. We don't know what to do with it anyway.

What I did find out in the service manual, is that any protection related fault is being recorded by the processor and is retrievable through a feature called 'detected protection history'. It gives you a fault code that you can look up in the manual. This, in contrast to some arbitrary DC voltage readings, that none of us have an idea what to do with, is actually useful information. Look it up in the manual, run the diagnostics, tell us what the fault is.

 

[mhjmhjones]

any protection related fault is being recorded by the processor and is retrievable through a feature called 'detected protection history'. It gives you a fault code that you can look up in the manual. This, in contrast to some arbitrary DC voltage readings, that none of us have an idea what to do with, is actually useful information. Look it up in the manual, run the diagnostics, tell us what the fault is.

Instructions on how to do that are on page 196 of the service manual. I might have time to get to that today, and will report back with my results.

Thank you very much for looking that up!

 

[LF240]

Yes, OK, now what? Honestly, running you through that routine without telling you what to do about it wasn't, IMO, a useful idea at all.

Since when is checking an amp's DC offset not a useful idea? It's a quick, easy, useful way to check the output "health" of a unit as well as a way to know if the OP is in danger of damaging his speakers with an amp that's acting up. In this case, I'd say that he's in no danger of damaging his speakers and it's time to start digging into the service manual, as you've suggested.

 

[tnsilver]

^ There's no doubt it's low and safe but nevertheless looks unbalanced. Regardless, it's totally moot if there's nothing to do about those results. Without the proper routine for measuring DC offset (source? mode?), we don't even know if it's normal or not in comparison with other units. The OP's speakers were never under any obvious DC offset perils. The receiver had consistently appeared to be doing a good (if not overzealous) work at any aspect of protecting it self, and the speakers. What was the point of sending the OP to test the speaker terminals for DC when it's obviously not outputting anything when in protection mode???