Turntable (or something) has started tripping a relay (assumed) in my receiver when the needle drops

[tnsilver]

It's connected to the DVR/VCR 1 input.

I'm glad I've asked and sorry for not asking earlier. That is the oddest choice. It may still not be related but here's the deal... Any of the line level inputs have an input sensitivity of 335mv at 47KΩ impedance, which is a perfect match for the Zphono. The video components input, on the other hand, require at least 1 volt. That's about 3 times more than the Zphono can deliver. How about moving the ZPhono to the AUX input and starting fresh - just for kicks?

 

[mhjmhjones]

I will try that. I've had it hooked up this way for several years and the problem just started a few weeks ago. But I'm willing to try! I'm really hoping this can remain a DIY project.

I'm glad I've asked and sorry for not asking earlier. That is the oddest choice. It may still not be related but here's the deal... Any of the line level inputs have an input sensitivity of 335mv at 47KΩ impedance, which is a perfect match for the Zphono. The video components input, on the other hand, require at least 1 volt. That's about 3 times more than the Zphono can deliver. How about moving the ZPhono to the AUX input and starting fresh - just for kicks?

 

[mhjmhjones]

Best I can do (I think) is the CDR/Tape/MD input. I don't have an AUX input.

I'm glad I've asked and sorry for not asking earlier. That is the oddest choice. It may still not be related but here's the deal... Any of the line level inputs have an input sensitivity of 335mv at 47KΩ impedance, which is a perfect match for the Zphono. The video components input, on the other hand, require at least 1 volt. That's about 3 times more than the Zphono can deliver. How about moving the ZPhono to the AUX input and starting fresh - just for kicks?

 

[rothwellaudio]

How do you fix a subsonic noise problem? As far as I can tell, there are no electronics in the TT, It's all mechanical and basic switches, but I'm very low on the electronics skill scale.
Something like this: https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/60042/DB_Systems-DB_Systems_Subsonic_Filter-Turntable_Accessories ?

Yes, that's one possibility. It's only a 6dB/octave filter, so not very sophisticated, but it's not a huge amount of money to risk. A more sophisticated solution would be an active subsonic filter that you could put after the phonostage. An alternative solution would be to look for a phonostage which has a subsonic filter built in.

I will try that. I've had it hooked up this way for several years and the problem just started a few weeks ago.

At the same time as you bought the new stylus?

 

[mhjmhjones]

Yes, that's one possibility. It's only a 6dB/octave filter, so not very sophisticated, but it's not a huge amount of money to risk. A more sophisticated solution would be an active subsonic filter that you could put after the phonostage. An alternative solution would be to look for a phonostage which has a subsonic filter built in.


At the same time as you bought the new stylus?

More or less around the same time but I tinkered with a lot of other stuff around that time (Christmas holiday). But earlier today, I put the old stylus back on and the issue persisted. I also started using an ultrasonic cleaner (using a mix of wetting agents, etc. I got from a discussion on AK) around the same time too. Added an Oppo SACD and connected my bluRay player to the Pioneer - both of which are connected through the HDMI inputs.

 

[tnsilver]

Best I can do (I think) is the CDR/Tape/MD input

Fine, use that input panel. It has a couple CD (IN) RCA inputs to the left of the CDR/Tape/MD inputs. Use the CD one.

BTW... Pio named that panel 'Stereo analog audio source inputs'. That's the one to go to.

 

[Fishead]

In your user's manual, it specifies connecting the analog source (your turntable/phonostage) to the CDR/TAPE/MD input. I don't see any AUX input on your receiver, so use the IN RCAs of that input. (Edit: was typing this and submitted right after tnsilver made the same recommendation.) Then, select PURE DIRECT, NOT STREAM DIRECT and it should be as good as it's going to get with this particular receiver. If the problem persists, then I'm thinking rothwellaudio is on the right track in suggesting some really low frequencies that may be causing the issue. However......you also stated that you've been running this setup for a number of years and just recently have been having the problem. This suggests something within the receiver is not well and I know this is not what you want to hear, but it's certainly possible. The only change you made is the new stylus, yet you also tried an older one that exhibited the same symptoms so that leads me to suspect something in the receiver is amiss unless you made other changes that you have not yet mentioned? Might you have changed the location of the turntable in a way that results in less isolation?

Isn't this fun??? I'm about ready to retire the Rotel for my phono listening and get an all-analog preamp that I'll then feed to either the Rotel power amp or a new, perhaps tube power amp. Black Ice Audio is making some really nice stuff and it's way affordable compared to a lot of the other brands. But that's getting ahead of ourselves and you have things to try first. Let us know if you find anything more in your tests.

 

[mhjmhjones]

Well, I connected to both the CD input (which I use for my CD) and the CDR/Tape/MD input and it happened on both inputs. There is a sound effect that happens twice at the beginning of Welcome to the Machine that triggers the problem faithfully (the sound occurs twice in the intro right before the first acoustic guitar strum). So I can use that song to test - making progress.

So now what I did is I connected TT directly to the Sansui AU-888 phono 1 input and Welcome to the Machine played fine. Sounds great actually. But the Sansui is only hooked up to speakers in certain rooms and not to the whole system (the pioneer is the main input for all sources and the sansei is the amp for offset rooms).

Fine, use that input panel. It has a couple CD (IN) RCA inputs to the left of the CDR/Tape/MD inputs. Use the CD one.

BTW... Pio named that panel 'Stereo analog audio source inputs'. That's the one to go to.

 

[tnsilver]

Bummer! Not what I was expecting but leave the Zphono at that input. Anything hooked and feeding off the switched AC outlet on the Pio?

 

[Bicyclist]

Vintage electronics for the win! Seriously though this sounds pretty disheartening, on a related note, I had a zphono pre and honestly I prefer the pre in my ancient pioneer stuff. Sa-700 and an allied pioneer clone. I'm sure the zphono is not your problem but they are pretty gainy.

 

[mhjmhjones]

OK Tried that. I think you're right about something being amiss! I connected to the CDR/TAPE/MD input and selected PURE DIRECT - still happens. An interesting development is that when it happens, I just noticed the screen on the front very briefly says "err" and then it switched to STREAM DIRECT when it switched back on!

If you saw my post directly above this one (at least that is where it is while I'm typing this), you may have seen that I connected to my Sansui phono input and had no issues. My next test is going to be playing the main (A) speakers in the main room with the second zone (powered by the Sansui) turned off - just to see if the second zone is causing the issue. I haven't moved the system around. I did get new banana plugs and other speaker connection upgrades recently but I think that was after I first noticed this problem.

It is fun. It is more fun having a system that is dialed in and does exactly what you want it to do. That's all I want. I've had that. There is a youtube channel I watch from time to time called The Audiophilliac, I believe, and one of his videos he talks about what is an audiophile - he says an audiophile is a person who has a stereo that the love to listen to.

In your user's manual, it specifies connecting the analog source (your turntable/phonostage) to the CDR/TAPE/MD input. I don't see any AUX input on your receiver, so use the IN RCAs of that input. (Edit: was typing this and submitted right after tnsilver made the same recommendation.) Then, select PURE DIRECT, NOT STREAM DIRECT and it should be as good as it's going to get with this particular receiver. If the problem persists, then I'm thinking rothwellaudio is on the right track in suggesting some really low frequencies that may be causing the issue. However......you also stated that you've been running this setup for a number of years and just recently have been having the problem. This suggests something within the receiver is not well and I know this is not what you want to hear, but it's certainly possible. The only change you made is the new stylus, yet you also tried an older one that exhibited the same symptoms so that leads me to suspect something in the receiver is amiss unless you made other changes that you have not yet mentioned? Might you have changed the location of the turntable in a way that results in less isolation?

Isn't this fun??? I'm about ready to retire the Rotel for my phono listening and get an all-analog preamp that I'll then feed to either the Rotel power amp or a new, perhaps tube power amp. Black Ice Audio is making some really nice stuff and it's way affordable compared to a lot of the other brands. But that's getting ahead of ourselves and you have things to try first. Let us know if you find anything more in your tests.

 

[mhjmhjones]

Why yes, the Pioneer is plugged into a Sears power strip (an older, metal type) with six outlets. The other 5 are used for the Sansui, the ZPhono, a Bluetooth receiver, the SACD, and the bluray player. I am outlet challenged in this old house. I'll plug a photo in here. in a minute. Oh wait - I have my CD player plugged into the switched outlet on the back of the Pio - just realized that's what you were asking. And I also DID just recently hook that back up to the Pioneer - maybe around the same time this problem started. I'll unplug that and report back!

Bummer! Not what I was expecting but leave the Zphono at that input. Anything hooked and feeding off the switched AC outlet on the Pio?

 

[Mr Boochie]

Can subsonic frequencies trigger a DC detection? Isn't subsonic still AC in nature?

Thanks!

 

[mhjmhjones]

I have figured out that the problem only occurs when the second zone is on. I just played Welcome to the Machine in zone 1 (advents powered by the pioneer) and the problem did not happen. I think when I initially thought I had solved the problem it was because I was playing the music in zone 1! Having 2 zones is one of the main features that I want to work on my receiver and my whole system is built around having that work. But at least I've made another discovery, with the help of numerous people who have chimed in here.

Also I ran a test with the CD player unplugged from the switched outlet on the back of the Pio and that did not solve the problem (in zone 2).

 

[tnsilver]

That's progress. Do you ever get that 'OVER' warning (located about the top middle of the screen) while playing analog?

What is powering the speakers in zone 2?
How is it connected to the Pio?
What impedance speakers are in zone 2?

 

[Fishead]

I just love happy endings......although, this one might not be entirely happy because now you have a new challenge with the zone 2 matter. On it goes, but I have a hunch you will arrive at that system that is dialed in and does what you want it to do before too awfully long amigo! Good work, your persistence paid off!

 

[mhjmhjones]

I have a Sansui Au-888 powering 4 ohm AR-3a speakers in zone 2. There is “Multi-room & Source” RCA analog output on the pioneer. It feeds the Sansui through a decent interconnect going into the Sansui’s Aux input.

I bought the Sansui from a man who at one time had the goal of owning “every piece of high end audio equipment” and had to basically go through a job interview process before he agreed to sell it to me (for a really good price!). It can handle 4 ohm speakers.

I have not noticed the “OVER” warning, but I did notice it said “err” very briefly before clicking off earlier.

That's progress. Do you ever get that 'OVER' warning (located about the top middle of the screen) while playing analog?

What is powering the speakers in zone 2?
How is it connected to the Pio?
What impedance speakers are in zone 2?

 

[tnsilver]

I was just about to post I've figured out it was the "basic multi-room setup", as I've seen the earlier reference to the Sansui and the AR's in zone 2.
The fine print in the owner's manual (p53) has this remark about the multi-room listening option: "Note that you will only be able to play analog sources (such as composite video) in the sub room." I don't fully understand this restriction but nevertheless, is it possible some obscured configuration is making or forcing the Pio to 'think' the input from the Zphono is digital? Have you encountered anything like that in the setup menu?

 

[mhjmhjones]

I was aware that only analog sources can be used for multi-room. I used the Parasound in this configuration for a few years with no issue. I always believed that I can only use the analog inputs as opposed to the HDMI inputs or the optical/coax digital inputs.

I have a feeling something is going bad or needing cleaning inside the pioneer. Do you think dirty relays could be the problem?

I was just about to post I've figured out it was the "basic multi-room setup", as I've seen the earlier reference to the Sansui and the AR's in zone 2.
The fine print in the owner's manual (p53) has this remark about the multi-room listening option: "Note that you will only be able to play analog sources (such as composite video) in the sub room." I don't fully understand this restriction but nevertheless, is it possible some obscured configuration is making or forcing the Pio to 'think' the input from the Zphono is digital? Have you encountered anything like that in the setup menu?

 

[tnsilver]

Dirty relays don't get cleaned up all of a sudden out of the blue when you switch to a different source - do they?
You're not having this issue with anything other than the turntable playing into the Zphono being connected to the Pio - do you?
I don't even think it's a directly related DC issue. I think something is drawing too much power (overload) from the Pio under some (currently mysterious) circumstances.