Upgrading from KEF Q500

[Raphaz]

I recently got my receivers (a Yamaha R-2000 and a Nikko 1219) serviced. So now the upgraditis bug is creeping up on me.

I know I can do better with my mains, currently a pair of KEF Q500 (with an added Klipsch 12” sub).

It’s a wide open, tall warehouse-like space (high ceiling, wooden floors, big windows and brick walls), and even with remotes helping to fill some of the far corners, I could upgrade the KEFs with towers or stand mounts that fill the space a bit more.

I’m listening to vinyl and streaming services, and I don’t have a particular sweet spot. All sources go into a Wiim Pro+ and from there to the receiver that feeds the wired mains and sub, and at the same time to the wireless remotes (the Wiim does a pretty good job with delay and room corrections).

Besides slightly bigger floor standers, I wonder if stand mounts with tall stands could work. I could also imagine to use the B channel to add a pair of smaller wall mounts, if that helps.

I like the KEFs, they’re really good: clean, even tempered in all frequencies and pretty accurate and detailed, but sometimes they feel a bit tamed, compressed (if not boxy) to me.

And at lower volumes they just don’t project far enough.

One of the challenges I have is that, where they stand, off one of the shorter walls, I can’t have them too wide apart, they can’t be too big and not further than 2 feet away from the back wall. Unfortunately there really is no better spot. I tested with toeing them in and out and I believe the current angle is as good as it gets.

I want to cap my budget at 1.4 K, new or used. I’m open to vintage but there’s always the risk of added cost for hidden damage, reframing, replacing rubbers, recapping…

From what I understand, horns for the tweeters would help with filling the room. Klipsch RP series may be interesting, good value for the price it seems, but people complain about harshness and fatigue and I’m not sure about build quality, may be ok.

Not sure if upgrading to slightly larger KEFs would be an option. Maybe one of the R Meta line, but that may be over my budget, even used. And after a huge disappointment with LS50 (1st gen, not metas) as remotes I have some reservations with more recent KEF products.

There are too many other brands to consider: Focal, Sonus Faber, Triangle, BSP, Monitor Audio, JBL, Burchardt, Walsh, Arendal, Altec, Fyne, Harbeth, Tannoy, GoldenEar… I’m sure there are more. But I need to narrow it down. I may not be able to test-listen many of them.


I was hoping to get some help with narrowing it down to a handful of brands/models. Any advice is appreciated, thank you.

 

[Tromatic]

Take a look at Monitor Audio on your list.
ETA over budget I guess.

 

[Raphaz]

Thanks!
Which model Monitor Audio, and why? Can you be a bit more specific? Thank you.

I “took a look” at some of the above listed brand’s towers (and some potential stand mounts) already. Monitor Audio Bronze Silver 500, Bronze 500 and Gold 20 are some of them. But I can’t test listen them - I’m looking for characteristics and for an idea on how they would behave in my space.

 

[Raphaz]

R

 

[sound hound]

How about Altec A7's? It is an understatement to say that they are designed for large spaces. Not sure if the utility cosmetic would suit you, but the space you have cries for something on the bigger side. There should be some in NY. There is a pair in Kansas City selling for $1300 OBO, but of course they are for pickup only.

 

[Raphaz]

How about Altec A7's? It is an understatement to say that they are designed for large spaces. Not sure if the utility cosmetic would suit you, but the space you have cries for something on the bigger side. There should be some in NY. There is a pair in Kansas City selling for $1300 OBO, but of course they are for pickup only.

Thank you.
Yes! These would most likely do what I want, and then some. I think there are also some good CVs, JBLs and EVs with horns that were built for public-theater-like situations; and there’s of course the La Scala.

Unfortunately, there’s not enough space on that wall for something like that (I may attach pics of the room situation later).
Also, Ernesto and Axel of Analogique fame here in New York would be the only ones I know who could properly service a speaker like that - and they may retire soon.

It’s a bummer. You’d think a 12000 sqft loft space would be ideal, but the layout/configuration (large windows, stairs, doors…) just prevents me from carving out enough space for serious theater speakers like the A7. And in good shape they often are over my budget.

I even considered arrays that I could hang up higher against corners of that wall, but they’d be massive and often require dedicated amps and wiring.
Maybe bipole or dipole corner mounts in addition to towers?
At some point I looked into ceiling mounted pendant speakers but I have doubts that I’d be happy with the sound. They’re usually made for commercial spaces (malls, restaurants…), and some of these require proprietary amplification I think.

So that’s the challenge in a nutshell.
I try to be realistic and to not expect acoustic and physics defying magic. But I was hoping that there are accurate, powerful towers or stand mounts (I could use taller stands) with horns. That, with maybe an upgraded sub (if necessary), should at least give me some improved, more room filling sound.
Am I wrong?

 

[Raphaz]

I will try to find out if I’m able to audition at least a more commercially available “modern” tower with a horn, like the Klipsch RP-8000, to gauge if I like what usually seems to be perceived as more forward and as having more pronounced, shrill (and for some folks fatiguing) treble.
Not sure if I will be able to find a place where I can audition any of the other brands and configurations against it.
That way I could start ruling out some.

Any advice/opinion here on how to approach my first world problems are certainly still highly appreciated.

 

[rickb119]

Your KEF Q500's are rated @ 87db efficiency, and 130w max power. I'd be looking for speakers with a higher efficiency/power rating.

My 104'2's are rated @ 92db/200w. They can get plenty loud, and still be very coherent. They do not at all sound tamed/compressed/boxy. Unfortunately, they are 4 ohm, which is not recommended for your Yamaha. Also, they tend to excel with high power/current amps, so I doubt the Nikko would do them justice. Here's a review. https://www.whathifi.com/features/that-was-then-kef-reference-1042-1984

Another options (with your current amps) would be these. https://ascendacoustics.com/collect...340se2-mini-tower-pair?variant=40521999646774 8 ohms/96db/240w. Ascend has an excellent return policy, although you would pay for shipping.

 

[Raphaz]

Your KEF Q500's are rated @ 87db efficiency, and 130w max power. I'd be looking for speakers with a higher efficiency/power rating.

My 104'2's are rated @ 92db/200w. They can get plenty loud, and still be very coherent. They do not at all sound tamed/compressed/boxy. Unfortunately, they are 4 ohm, which is not recommended for your Yamaha. Also, they tend to excel with high power/current amps, so I doubt the Nikko would do them justice. Here's a review. https://www.whathifi.com/features/that-was-then-kef-reference-1042-1984

Another options (with your current amps) would be these. https://ascendacoustics.com/collect...340se2-mini-tower-pair?variant=40521999646774 8 ohms/96db/240w. Ascend has an excellent return policy, although you would pay for shipping.

The Ascend seem interesting, good size and good value for the price. No horns but I guess I shouldn’t limit myself, domes can fill a space too when made a certain way. Thank you!

 

[Raphaz]

It seems difficult to test listen to any of the brands/ models in question. The boutique stores with the good stuff and an audition room only carry a couple brands and may not have any of the speakers I’m interested in on display. Many are not interested to waste time with customers with a budget under four grand. I get it.
Plus, most decent speakers are geared towards a sweet listening spot and smaller, acoustically easier spaces.

Any experience you can share with modest sized speakers filling a similar space like mine with decent, detailed sound will be enormously helpful and appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Raphaz]

Attaching some pics of the space for reference (currently a bit cluttered).
The red arrows point to the two KEFs, and in the rendering, they're represented with red rectangles.

 

[Mike_S]

Attaching some pics of the space for reference (currently a bit cluttered).
The red arrows point to the two KEFs, and in the rendering, they're represented with red rectangles.

Oh, that is a tough space, not sure any directional speaker will sound good in that location. They are too close to each other, too close to the wall, too close to the window, stairs, and corner. Everything in the room is "bright". Nothing about that location is good for audio.

Horns will fill the space, but you will not really get the benefit out of them.

If that was my spot, and wanted a change, look at Ohm Wash speakers, or ever dare I say it Bose 901's, something direct/reflecting might be best for that space. Or hang some bookshelf speakers from the ceiling, out from the wall, at least 6ft apart.

 

[Guido57]

Relatively long and narrow. I'll go (maybe too far) out on a limb here and say a pair of used ZU Dirty Weekends. Some have opined that they may be too directional but with the room you have they might be a good solution. If the new speakers will be in the same location I would have to disagree with the notion of wide dispersion speakers: too much reflection off the walls. YMMV.

 

[Raphaz]

Difficult space indeed.
When I moved in to the then still empty space I was excited about the prospect of having a big space to play with and to create sort of a controlled, immersive, concert-like audio experience.
But, even if I would move things around I would probably still end up with the speakers on that smaller end wall space for the mains.
I do have height though, which may allow me for a second set smaller speakers or dipoles higher up, maybe, but wait, there’s the fourth window…
I don’t want to complain though. I love the space!

I wonder if I can find good stand mount speakers and get some custom bases made to lift them up a bit higher?

The Zu look intriguing, agreed. I came across them a while ago but figured that they are over my budget. I still think they are.

I also considered a pair of Ohm Walsh, intrigued by their looks and unusual engineering approach. For some reason I assumed insufficient accuracy and low sensitivity (maybe because of their mid century look?).
Thank you for bringing them back into my radar. Reading a bit more about them it seems like they may just be what the doctor ordered. There is always a compromise (in this case maybe SPL or certain aspects of SQ, not sue) but they can be close to the wall, are semi—omnidirectional and are not targeting a particular listening spot exclusively, but tend to fill a room (up to larger sizes than mine) which makes them suddenly very attractive to me. Most owners praise their sound.
I now need to read a bit more and check if my budget allows for the ideal size/model. I understand their HQs are in CT. Do they have an audition/showroom or a dedicated dealer in or close to NYC or Westchester, NY?

 

[Raphaz]

Wanted to add a question: Would the 150 WPC (8 Ohm) be sufficient to drive Ohm Walsh’s?

 

[Guido57]

The Zu look intriguing, agreed. I came across them a while ago but figured that they are over my budget. I still think they are.

The ZU DW's can often be found in the area of $1K used in good condition though none currently listed in the NYC area (Hartford CT and Washington DC current listings). Of course this does not let you audition them in your own space but listening them at a sellers place can give you a rough idea.
I don't think OHM Walsh speakers are any cheaper, either new or used unless they need work.

 

[UncleAng]

Wanted to add a question: Would the 150 WPC (8 Ohm) be sufficient to drive Ohm Walsh’s?

Given the size of your room .... NO.
BTW: that's a horrible listening space you have there.
The OHM's need space around them to sound their best as well as being 8-10' apart.
Speaker placement makes a world of difference in SQ, regardless of brand or type.
Please don't spend too much money.

 

[Raphaz]

Difficult space indeed.
When I moved in to the then still empty space I was excited about the prospect of having a big space to play with and to create sort of a controlled, immersive, concert-like audio experience.
But, even if I would move things around I would probably still end up with the speakers on that smaller end wall space for the mains.
I do have height though, which may allow me for a second set smaller speakers or dipoles higher up, maybe, but wait, there’s the fourth window…
I don’t want to complain though. I love the space!

I wonder if I can find good stand mount speakers and get some custom bases made to lift them up a bit higher?

The Zu look intriguing, agreed. I came across them a while ago but figured that they are over my budget. I still think they are.

I also considered a pair of Ohm Walsh, intrigued by their looks and unusual engineering approach. For some reason I assumed insufficient accuracy and low sensitivity (maybe because of their mid century look?).
Thank you for bringing them back into my radar. Reading a bit more about them it seems like they may just be what the doctor ordered. There is always a compromise (in this case maybe SPL or certain aspects of SQ, not sue) but they can be close to the wall, are semi—omnidirectional and are not targeting a particular listening spot exclusively, but tend to fill a room (up to larger sizes than mine) which makes them suddenly very attractive to me. Most owners praise their sound.
I now need to read a bit more and check if my budget allows for the ideal size/model. I understand their HQs are in CT. Do they have an audition/showroom or a dedicated dealer in or close to NYC or Westchester, NY?

 

[Guido57]

Why the repost?

 

[Raphaz]

Given the size of your room .... NO.
BTW: that's a horrible listening space you have there.
The OHM's need space around them to sound their best as well as being 8-10' apart.
Speaker placement makes a world of difference in SQ, regardless of brand or type.
Please don't spend too much money. you saying “move or give up on SQ”

Sounds like you’re saying “give up on SQ or move to another space.”
I get it. And you’re not wrong.
But, I won’t move anytime soon, that’s for sure; and I won’t give up on better sound just yet. And, I won’t likely go above my budget mentioned above. I’m aware that the space is far from ideal, probably for any speaker, that’s what this challenge is about; that’s why I’m here.

What I came here for was for advice on how I can make some (hopefully significant), somewhat affordable improvements where I am. As mentioned I don’t expect miracles. Rather a best as possible, for me satisfying solution.

As far as the Ohms go, you may be right about budget, it may be over, and investing in repairs or upgrades for a pair of used ones may kill a bargain.
From what I read the Ohms would help with the sound a bit, and I thought they are less picky with placement - but maybe I’m wrong. Again, I know, the proximity is not ideal for any speaker, but that’s what I have to work with.