Accident
Upgrading from KEF Q500
- Thread starter Raphaz
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- kef q500 large space speakers
@Raphaz : I'm really trying not to be too negative, but in your case it's tough.
Yes, the OHM's are less picky than the average speaker in the average room.... but you room outlay is far from average, so if you can't capitalize on a speaker's assets I don't recommend you spend the money. I'm not sure they would sound significantly different than your Q500's.
Happens to me every now and then on the phone - not sure why
Got it. And appreciate it. Thank you.
I wonder if I can bring the main speakers forward a bit and the left one in front of the stairs. See attached.
That way I’d get a bit more distance between them and from the wall. The left would be close to where the sub is now (which is tucked below the stairs). The fact that the sub (slightly toed in) projects surprisingly well into the space makes me hope that the left speaker would work fine there — although the left speaker would be almost in front of the sub which may cause other issues. Sectional and piano would have to move further down into the space.
Probably awkward flow and use of space otherwise. But I got the WAF taken care of for that now, so I’ll do a trial with the KEFs just to hear how the sound changes…
That way I’d get a bit more distance between them and from the wall. The left would be close to where the sub is now (which is tucked below the stairs). The fact that the sub (slightly toed in) projects surprisingly well into the space makes me hope that the left speaker would work fine there — although the left speaker would be almost in front of the sub which may cause other issues. Sectional and piano would have to move further down into the space.
Probably awkward flow and use of space otherwise. But I got the WAF taken care of for that now, so I’ll do a trial with the KEFs just to hear how the sound changes…
Attachments
Yes, great idea; your KEFs are way too close together now.
Spend hours experimenting, if you want better sound then the first thing that gets chucked is aesthetics.
Moving the KEFs as mentioned above definitely improved the stereo imaging, and maybe added a tiny bit clarity.
It sounded more boxy and a bit tame to my ears. That may also have to do with the stairs behind the speakers (and the space below them) acting a bit like a wooden resonance body, not sure. I of course got less from the right speaker also as it was now closer to furniture and therefore more obstructed. The Q500 are not super tall and the mid and low woofers are now below the furniture line (sofa, piano…).
My gut feeling tells me that this layout could be an improvement given I can get speakers with a bit more sensitivity (min 90) and if I can raise them above the furniture line (stand mounts or taller towers).
May be worth it, not sure.
It sounded more boxy and a bit tame to my ears. That may also have to do with the stairs behind the speakers (and the space below them) acting a bit like a wooden resonance body, not sure. I of course got less from the right speaker also as it was now closer to furniture and therefore more obstructed. The Q500 are not super tall and the mid and low woofers are now below the furniture line (sofa, piano…).
My gut feeling tells me that this layout could be an improvement given I can get speakers with a bit more sensitivity (min 90) and if I can raise them above the furniture line (stand mounts or taller towers).
May be worth it, not sure.
It looks like it's now about finding good stand mounts or taller towers, ideally with at least 90 dB of sensitivity.
Horns or no horns for my space, given the change in placement as in above? I'm a bit confused about that still — some recommend it, some advise against horns. To be fair, not everyone had the same awareness of my space.
On a different note:
I'm not sure if it's just about me, but a lot of speakers seem to sound boxy to me, and often "tamed", meaning the sound seems to come out of a damped, wooden box (which, in reality, they usually do, I suppose). To put it dramatically: snares and toms can sound like cardboard; cymbals have no ring, as if things are almost a bit too controlled. Not sure how to better explain it.
The Q500 does that to some extent, but, depending on placement, it's bearable. The Fluance A61 (which I currently use as remotes in the kitchen) certainly does that (as did the Q Acoustics M20 I test-listened to for the same purpose, and the LS50 non-meta).
One of the speakers that never sounded boxy to me is the Minimus 7 (which, in its size, is still unbeatable to my ears) — maybe because it's cast iron?
I wonder if that's a personal animosity issue, or if it's related to the speaker design and the materials used. I suppose I want to determine if I can avoid specific speaker models or designs if I don't like that characteristic. Very personal, I know...
Thank you all again for your honest opinions and for sharing your experiences.
Horns or no horns for my space, given the change in placement as in above? I'm a bit confused about that still — some recommend it, some advise against horns. To be fair, not everyone had the same awareness of my space.
On a different note:
I'm not sure if it's just about me, but a lot of speakers seem to sound boxy to me, and often "tamed", meaning the sound seems to come out of a damped, wooden box (which, in reality, they usually do, I suppose). To put it dramatically: snares and toms can sound like cardboard; cymbals have no ring, as if things are almost a bit too controlled. Not sure how to better explain it.
The Q500 does that to some extent, but, depending on placement, it's bearable. The Fluance A61 (which I currently use as remotes in the kitchen) certainly does that (as did the Q Acoustics M20 I test-listened to for the same purpose, and the LS50 non-meta).
One of the speakers that never sounded boxy to me is the Minimus 7 (which, in its size, is still unbeatable to my ears) — maybe because it's cast iron?
I wonder if that's a personal animosity issue, or if it's related to the speaker design and the materials used. I suppose I want to determine if I can avoid specific speaker models or designs if I don't like that characteristic. Very personal, I know...
Thank you all again for your honest opinions and for sharing your experiences.
She's generally very supportive, but sounds like a brilliant plan.
Not sure if I can have the Q500 on boxes. Maybe if I take off the bottom frame with the spikes. Worth trying. Thank you.
Because the ZU DWs seem to be a love it or hate it item I don't want to push too hard, but considering your room they might fit pretty well. If you can get them used for under a K in good shape you should be able to resell them if they don't work for you. In discussing the DW's flaws one person pointed out that for some circumstances that flaw may be a feature. The flaw in question for that discussion was their focus was too narrow. Your space is relatively narrow for its length and a speaker with wide dispersion might give you unpleasant reflections. Just a thought, and all rooms are different.
Mike_S
Well-Known Member
Where is your listening spot? L/R speakers should be on the same plane, meaning they should both be in-line. If not you will get phase shift from L/R. Get some blue painters tape. Tape the floor where you put them. Move around, placing tape each time, mark the tape with your thoughts. Do not do any toe for this, it will take some time. Once you find a good spot, then mess with toe. 1/2in can make a noticeable improvement.
On height, you generally want the tweeters to be at ear level, the more you toe in, the smaller the sound stage will be but better imaging. Key is to find the balance.
Would not really worry about sensitivity all that much. Horns might work well, they are very good at projecting sound, are good off-axis. Plus they can play loud. At my seating spot, have recorded 111db! it was still clean and listenable.
Might not be the speakers, but the source. This is called a "non-revealing system" If the speaker are muddy, they need to be rebuilt, or they are crap. You do have a low end TT, it will not be reveling. A cart upgrade will help a bit.
If you were local, would loan you some higher end stuff to test. With a good amp, my cheap Klipsch bookshelf speaker will fill a room, and provide surprising bass. Also have some new KLH Model 5's that are low sensitivity, sealed box, again, with a good amp, are amazing.
Where does the OP name his turntable? He has two reasonably respectable receivers, the KEF, and a Wiim. I don't see anything else mentioned but my eyes aren't so good.
Correct. He does not mention his sources (TT, CD, tape and streaming services) anywhere in this thread. But he thinks they are decent, not super high end (whatever that means) but certainly not low end.
He’s aware that upgrading sources and amplification is always possible. But that’s not why he’s here.
He’s happy with his receivers (both recently serviced by an expert) and has yet to hear something more revealing than the R-2000.
For now he wants to work with the receivers and sources he has (mainly with the R-2000) and work on the speakers, and he’s convinced that he can find a solution for the main speakers that sounds better in his space, be it by acquiring new speakers, or placement, height, angle, EQ, room correction… or whatever else helps to fill the space and provide better (clear, well balanced in all frequencies, non-colored, non-distorted, non-tamed, non-boxy) sound and decent imaging.
He does not expect miracles in this space, he’s looking for improvements. He appreciates this forum and any opinion, suggestion or advice.
Sorry for that third person comment — I couldn’t help it.
Next step: experimenting with different heights and positioning. I need to find stable enough boxes or stands or anything stable enough to temporarily put the Q500s on, to find out how height (together with more distance) changes the sound.
As temperatures raise here, ceiling fans, A/C and tower fans add to the challenge.
Wish me luck!
Next step: experimenting with different heights and positioning. I need to find stable enough boxes or stands or anything stable enough to temporarily put the Q500s on, to find out how height (together with more distance) changes the sound.
As temperatures raise here, ceiling fans, A/C and tower fans add to the challenge.
Wish me luck!
I had a pair of KEF Q900's. That series isn't hard to top but your room is. It's a perfect excuse for some large vintage speakers from Altec or Klipsch. I listed Altec first as that would be my choice. A pair of VOTT's should work.
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Too large
Bringing the Q500 forward, further apart and putting them on short stands made a difference, while not a significant one.
It seems like the biggest factors were for them to be less obstructed, and the distance between them made for a slightly better stereo image.
Not sure if bringing them forward made that much of a difference — to my ears they give me a better feel of the room when they’re closer to the wall, in a, for my taste, good way. There many have been other factors that played a role, not sure.
But to my surprise, experimenting with toeing and changing the speaker’s angle ever so slightly, had a much bigger impact! Suddenly they opened up and filled the room more. Also, delays between main and remotes (became much more pronounced — of course room correction now needs to be readjusted.
The Q500s on the stands is not stable enough for a long term solution, though. it was rather precarious.
Conclusion so far:
A bit more distance and height, plus careful toeing will get me closer to what I’m looking for. That, paired with different speakers, maybe with slightly more sensitivity, may be satisfactory.
Two ways to get the height: They could be shorter speakers, but on higher stands, or they could be taller towers with a layout where the lowest placed driver is further up.
Not sure yet if horns or no horns, and if a slightly larger driver per speaker would help.
It seems like the biggest factors were for them to be less obstructed, and the distance between them made for a slightly better stereo image.
Not sure if bringing them forward made that much of a difference — to my ears they give me a better feel of the room when they’re closer to the wall, in a, for my taste, good way. There many have been other factors that played a role, not sure.
But to my surprise, experimenting with toeing and changing the speaker’s angle ever so slightly, had a much bigger impact! Suddenly they opened up and filled the room more. Also, delays between main and remotes (became much more pronounced — of course room correction now needs to be readjusted.
The Q500s on the stands is not stable enough for a long term solution, though. it was rather precarious.
Conclusion so far:
A bit more distance and height, plus careful toeing will get me closer to what I’m looking for. That, paired with different speakers, maybe with slightly more sensitivity, may be satisfactory.
Two ways to get the height: They could be shorter speakers, but on higher stands, or they could be taller towers with a layout where the lowest placed driver is further up.
Not sure yet if horns or no horns, and if a slightly larger driver per speaker would help.
There are so many speakers out there, it would help me narrowing it down by looking at stats.
As of right now, horn or not horn-loaded is still an open question, something I may just have to find a way to try it out in my space.
I’m thinking of stand mounts, or (as mentioned) taller towers with the drivers placed above 2-ish feet.
I may or may not bring them a bit forward, and will certainly place them a bit further apart.
Considering the fact that thee will always be at least one sub, what should I look for in terms of stats for my space?
Does the following make any sense?
Frequency response (off axis): 60 Hz – 20 KHz (or better)
Sensitivity: min. 85 dB
Max input power: at least 85 Watts (8 Ohms)
As for the power handling, I’m not sure if I need the speakers to be min 150 Watts to match the R-2000’s 150W/Pc? I heard different theories about that.
I’ve never cranked the volume up all the way. I would likely suffer an ear injury and possibly blow out some windows. I actually installed a manual stop mechanism that prevents me from dialing beyond 11 p.m.
Any advice on the above would be super helpful!
Yes, I know, the speaker architecture and some other factors play a role, but I can probably narrow things down a bit by excluding some speakers that most certainly won’t work well in my setting based on their stats (as in above). Correct?
As of right now, horn or not horn-loaded is still an open question, something I may just have to find a way to try it out in my space.
I’m thinking of stand mounts, or (as mentioned) taller towers with the drivers placed above 2-ish feet.
I may or may not bring them a bit forward, and will certainly place them a bit further apart.
Considering the fact that thee will always be at least one sub, what should I look for in terms of stats for my space?
Does the following make any sense?
Frequency response (off axis): 60 Hz – 20 KHz (or better)
Sensitivity: min. 85 dB
Max input power: at least 85 Watts (8 Ohms)
As for the power handling, I’m not sure if I need the speakers to be min 150 Watts to match the R-2000’s 150W/Pc? I heard different theories about that.
I’ve never cranked the volume up all the way. I would likely suffer an ear injury and possibly blow out some windows. I actually installed a manual stop mechanism that prevents me from dialing beyond 11 p.m.
Any advice on the above would be super helpful!
Yes, I know, the speaker architecture and some other factors play a role, but I can probably narrow things down a bit by excluding some speakers that most certainly won’t work well in my setting based on their stats (as in above). Correct?