Using Latex Cement for KLH Cloth Surround Doping

[Retrovert]

Guitar speakers are not the same as hifi speakers. Many guitar players like to have damaged speakers because of the sound they produce. For them, their speakers are part of their instrument. HiFi speakers are reproducers. You want them to faithfully reproduce music, not flavor it. Using anything other than the good stuff (vintagear or RoyC butyl) ruins the speakers.

Very true.

Link Wray punctured the cone with a pencil, and Ray and Dave Davies slashed the cone with razor blades and punctured using knitting needles. Others use an epoxy to stiffen the cone.

It's one thing to induce distortion in a guitar amplifier's speaker which is not expected to long live; it's quite another to induce distortion in a HiFi speaker, particularly a vintage driver which has high value.

 

[transmaster]

In see I have ventured into another “zip-cord zone. I am out of here.

 

[RTally]

In see I have ventured into another “zip-cord zone. I am out of here.

I don't know why you would think that. Using anything other than the proper butyl compound on cloth surrounds is a lot like using duct tape to replace blown out foam surrounds. Some may think their speakers still sound "awesome," but they would be wrong. At least the duct tape can be removed and proper foam surrounds can be used. Using corona dope, latex, or other "stuff" will ruin vintage speakers as noted by Retrovert

 

[transmaster]

I don't know why you would think that. Using anything other than the proper butyl compound on cloth surrounds is a lot like using duct tape to replace blown out foam surrounds. Some may think their speakers still sound "awesome," but they would be wrong. At least the duct tape can be removed and proper foam surrounds can be used. Using corona dope, latex, or other "stuff" will ruin vintage speakers as noted by Retrovert

I am a little cautious. The flame wars I have run into on this topic else where has made me a little gun shy. I asked about this on an AR forum elsewhere and just the mention of the name Wharfedale was like I dropped a San Fransisco sidewalk loaf in with them.

 

[Retrovert]

In see I have ventured into another “zip-cord zone. I am out of here.

Sigh. So not true.

Instead of claiming surround treatments are somehow a matter of opinion, consider the history:

(1) You posted a recommendation to coat surrounds with corona varnish as if this suggestion were factual, tested, and credible, and if it worked better than the butylene-rubber dopant under discussion.
(2) I took the time to explain why, from a science and engineering perspective, including actual test results, why the proposed product was totally unsuitable, as it would instantly and irrevocably destroy a vintage speaker just as would any other hardening surround treatment.
(3) RTally explained why guitarists want distortion, and that this was a different goal.
​

The issue has nothing to do with flame wars or speaker cables or opinion. It has to do with promoting a product which is 100% guaranteed to destroy the sonic characteristics of a vintage speaker whose surround was originally coated with a soft, pliable, non-hardening (for decades) rubber. How could a hard treatment be beneficial? No speaker uses such a treatement, aside from guitar speakers which are treated to destroy the sonic characteristics to increase distortion.

I suggest taking the time to read the extensive discussion — including the quotes, summaries, and links I FIVE YEARS AGO posted — set forth in this very thread, as above linked to by me, as well as RoyC's writings here on AK and on ClassicSpeakerPages, all from years ago. He did the entirety of the necessary heavy lifting, having performed actual experiments and measurements, including ones taken over time to show the hardening of various cements and caulks.

I explained, in great detail, the science and engineering behind surround dopants, the material composition of the product you suggested as being a beneficial and suitable dopant, and why all hard dopants are destructive. Not an opinion, hard facts.

Thanking me for saving your speakers and those of others would be the more appropriate response.

 

[transmaster]

My Wharfdale W45’s are the first speakers I have owned with cloth surrounds till this time the only experience I have had with cloth surrounds is watching guitarists repairing Speakers with what ever they were using in the Big Bands I used to play in. Believe me this topic seems to be of a Zip-cord flame level on other forums elsewhere. A simple link to the proper stuff would have worked out which was done by someone else. That person was thanked.

I’ll have this on Monday.

 

[Retrovert]

My Wharfdale W45’s are the first speakers I have owned with cloth surrounds till this time the only experience I have had with cloth surrounds is watching guitarists repairing Speakers with what ever they were using in the Big Bands I used to play in. Believe me this topic seems to be of a Zip-cord flame level on other forums elsewhere. A simple link to the proper stuff would have worked out which was done by someone else. That person was thanked.

No, it isn't an argument about opinion about whether or not varnish, an indisputably hard finish, would be a suitable rejuvenator for a speaker surround originally treated with soft, pliable butylene rubber as the manufacturer originally used. This is a factual discussion.

You clearly stating as fact that a varnish product was a suitable treatment, when it, notably to the contrary, would be 100% guaranteed to irreparably destroy the speaker. That wasted others time in correcting the error and debunking it.

It is interesting that you purchased the correct treatment, i.e. butylene rubber, instead of taking your own advice and painting with corona varnish. Hmmmm. Why is that? Why are you posting about varnish when you yourself are not using it?

 

[Roger G F]

Working on some KLH Model 5’s and need some cloth surround goo. None on eBay.

where do I get it? I hear RoyC may know!?

 

[Billa]

Working on some KLH Model 5’s and need some cloth surround goo. None on eBay.

where do I get it? I hear RoyC may know!?

It appears the usual source (Vintage-AR) is not available for a little while. Maybe when they return?

 

[GD70]

Working on some KLH Model 5’s and need some cloth surround goo. None on eBay.

where do I get it? I hear RoyC may know!?

Roy makes it for vintage ar. Go to Roy directly via PM. He gives you more in the jar and a better price. I’ve bought many bottles from him.

 

[Dale j]

Vintage AR is on vacation, returning late March.

Forum members are welcome to contact me for the sealant.

Roy

I've been looking for you. I have a question regarding this sealant. First, I have AR4x that I'm done restoring with new caps and pots. I have one still grunts on heavy lows and scares my cat. I don't like it either. I have been advised to contact you regarding this material that is applied to the surrounds. The AR4x has cloth surrounds. What is the function of this material and is it for cloth surrounds? If it is and do you have it available for me to purchase? As a side note, I'm not sure why this one AR jumps and grunts all of a sudden. I have replaced the two components and it still does it. The other AR doesn't do it. I read another post that said this is a sealant. Is that to prevent air leakage?

Dale j.

 

[RoyC]

I've been looking for you. I have a question regarding this sealant. First, I have AR4x that I'm done restoring with new caps and pots. I have one still grunts on heavy lows and scares my cat. I don't like it either. I have been advised to contact you regarding this material that is applied to the surrounds. The AR4x has cloth surrounds. What is the function of this material and is it for cloth surrounds? If it is and do you have it available for me to purchase? As a side note, I'm not sure why this one AR jumps and grunts all of a sudden. I have replaced the two components and it still does it. The other AR doesn't do it. I read another post that said this is a sealant. Is that to prevent air leakage?

Dale j.

Hi Dale,

To answer your question(s)...It is a sealant for cloth surrounds, which is meant to reduce air leakage without compromising the compliance of the surround. I've repaired some of these woofers, and I doubt, however, that the sealant will solve the problem you describe.

I responded to you personal message.

Roy

 

[GD70]

Hi Dale,

To answer your question(s)...It is a sealant for cloth surrounds, which is meant to reduce air leakage without compromising the compliance of the surround. I've repaired some of these woofers, and I doubt, however, that the sealant will solve the problem you describe.

I responded to you personal message.

Roy

Hi Roy!
Nice to see you pop in! It’s been a while. I hope you and your family are all doing well.
Glenn

 

[RoyC]

Hi Roy!
Nice to see you pop in! It’s been a while. I hope you and your family are all doing well.
Glenn

Hey Glenn,
Likewise...All good here, thanks.
Coincidentally, last week I tried to describe the impeccable nature of your cabinet repair work to a fellow speaker geek. Needless to say my words were inadequate. Send some additional photos when you get a chance.

 

[Dale j]

Hi Dale,

To answer your question(s)...It is a sealant for cloth surrounds, which is meant to reduce air leakage without compromising the compliance of the surround. I've repaired some of these woofers, and I doubt, however, that the sealant will solve the problem you describe.

I responded to you personal message.

Roy

Hello Roy,

First I apologize for the multiple messages. I am new to this group and not familiar with how to PM. One of the other members clued me in but not before I tried other means.

I read your other responses. So there might be something else going on in that speaker then. I'm not sure how to fix it. Maybe a new woofer if I can find one. The other AR4x has a different looking woofer and doesn't act like the first one. I have rebuilt the components with new caps and pots and repaired the detached surround in a couple places. What happens is when listening to deep base with the volume up a bit for testing the one speaker will grunt badly the cone will vibrate out and I quickly turn down the volume control and then it's ok again. If I leave the volume down it doesn't happen. I normally listen to classical music and lower levels so maybe it won't be a bother unless I plan the 1912 overture... Is something like this repairable?
Many thanks for any advice Roy

Dale j.

 

[RoyC]

Hello Roy,

Is something like this repairable?
Many thanks for any advice Roy
Dale j.

The short answer is "sometimes".
Check carefully around the base of the cone where it intersects with the spider. Sometimes the old adhesive has degraded at this juncture causing uncontrolled cone movement. The other possibility is separation of the voice coil from the voice coil former. The first issue is often repairable, but the second is not.

The 4x used a number of different woofers during its run of around 400,000, so it is not unusual to find different versions.

 

[KingBubba]

Dale j, I suspect that you may have a large air leak in your cabinet. Do a thorough search and see if anything has created a hole in one place or another. There should be a gasket underneath all drivers. Look to see if one, or more, of your drivers is missing a gasket. If this is found, use either sealant or gasket material to replace a missing gasket. Good luck to you.

 

[Dale j]

The short answer is "sometimes".
Check carefully around the base of the cone where it intersects with the spider. Sometimes the old adhesive has degraded at this juncture causing uncontrolled cone movement. The other possibility is separation of the voice coil from the voice coil former. The first issue is often repairable, but the second is not.

The 4x used a number of different woofers during its run of around 400,000, so it is not unusual to find different versions.

Roy,
The spider is that the flexible looks like ribbed material that is glued to the bottom of the cone? If that is it and I find it detached in places then I can use the adhesive I have for repairing the detached surround that I got from Simply Speakers?

Dale j.

 

[GD70]

Roy,
The spider is that the flexible looks like ribbed material that is glued to the bottom of the cone? If that is it and I find it detached in places then I can use the adhesive I have for repairing the detached surround that I got from Simply Speakers?

Dale j.

Yes that’s the spider. I’d use Aileen’s Tacky glue if you see any areas that have separated from the basket.

 

[Dale j]

The short answer is "sometimes".
Check carefully around the base of the cone where it intersects with the spider. Sometimes the old adhesive has degraded at this juncture causing uncontrolled cone movement. The other possibility is separation of the voice coil from the voice coil former. The first issue is often repairable, but the second is not.

The 4x used a number of different woofers during its run of around 400,000, so it is not unusual to find different versions.

And thanks Roy regarding the different woofers used..my two are different but you explained it.