Vintage Gear vs Modern Gear. Is new any better than old?

[zebra03]

I live here by Lake Michigan in the Indiana Dunes.
There are many boats here.

Some are beautiful yachts, some are really nice 25-30 footers, direct drive IO, high performance etc.
There are also 25 foot and smaller fishing boats and some of those people can really fish better than the people with the big expensive rigs.
Some people with the yachts may only run 20 hours in one season, some others with more average rigs run 100 hours which is a lot.

They all enjoy what they have and make the best out of it.
The people with the yachts are simply "the people with the yachts".
They have the big system, the big deal so to speak and that's good.
There will always be the people that are jealous and say negative things about the beautiful yachts but who cares!
The people with the yachts enjoy the yachts!!!!
The people with the average boats enjoy the average boats!!!!!!

There are people down the road and on the beach that have million dollar homes and there are people that have more average homes.
Most of us share a common pride in our community and of course there are those that elevate themselves to feel as on a higher level.
Again, human nature.

I guess my point is that in the world there will always be people who have more than others including sound systems.

Doing the best with what we have at the time and being happy for others who have more is a virtue don't you think?
I enjoy hearing another persons system that is better than mine, it makes me strive for more, that's human nature.
Unfortunately it is also human nature to criticize others and exalt oneself, we have been doing that since we were kids and some people just don't grow up, others do.

I myself have been misunderstood, misquoted, called names here just for a few of my opinions that were simply opinions but overall the good much outweighs the bad.

If that doesn't make sense sorry, I'm spending too much time here to try to explain in greater detail!

Please don't reply saying Stevo you make no sense, we are talking about stereos here.

Yes, I'm talking about the great equalizer, it's called we are all people and we should all treat each other with respect regardless of who we are or what we have.

Have a great evening folks!

Stevo

In other words , all the boats float . As intended .

 

[OMGCat!]

I don't drive anything in traffic regularly (I ride a motorcycle) but do get stuck in traffic while driving high end cars often so can maybe comment on this. IMO/E it's traffic but you're driving a fancy car so it's kinda still fun. You might not be able to wind it out but you can still admire the engine noise and the interior and hang on to the steering wheel that's likely covered in thick leather or Alcantara in the case of the GT3RS I was stuck putting along in traffic today.
Maybe similar to listening to an uber high end system but the wife is asleep a few doors down so you can't turn it up very loudly at all. You can tell it's all there but you can't dig in.
Really, just looking at a well made machine is fun for me. It could be a Pass Labs amp (inside or out), the lines of a 911, a Ducati motorcycle or a Purdey shotgun. Well crafted, quality engineering is both admirable for it's intended purpose and what it is.

 

[Rex Aeterna]

i say it depends on the person. some people like trying new things or fixing things and whatever. i just like music and have tried new and old stuff and still do. doesn't matter to me really. there is not better or worst. in either era there is both. i know some disagree but, lot of even newer stuff while others believe it's an uber advancement of a certain tech, i don't see much difference in material and overall design purposes. i mean yea, some techs got smater and so forth in some areas but, i think advancement is not night and day like people make it out to be. only thing i see good improvement in is class d stuff and some new alterations and theories of different forms of pwm in general. i think that's where the actual advancements been going to mostly. speaker design i find it pretty much in same boat since the 60's mostly. i mean, yea, you got computer modeling and so forth but, even then, materials in general are not much, if, anything different to yesteryear...just seem like that due harder obtainment compared to more available majority of abundance of a certain specific material(s) of that earlier era..

 

[ictwoody]

a good amp from the past will sound almost as good as a upper end amp of today, and that leaves the defining difference being price. A nice looking vintage amp that others equate with as upper end quality from the past, will be of good enough quality in both performance, and looks. For most people that extra difference that a really high priced new upper end amp, will not justify the extra money.

Yeah... You're missing my point. I'm saying that a good amp from the past, TOTL stuff, ISN'T as good as a lot of MID-FI from today. Basically, there is plenty of reasonably priced stuff that can be bought new which will sonically smoke a lot of the high-end of yesteryear.

This is my opinion, garnered from my experience.

For the money that a LOT of TOTL vintage gear is going for these days, much better sounding modern options are available. I never was comparing the top end of yesteryear vs the top end of today. This is a distortion the vintage evangelist always seem to spin around.

- Woody

 

[sobolan]

Maybe I shouldn't post here since last time it got a bit ugly...
First thing that I must say is that I am passionate about vintage, hernia inducing gear.

For audio gear, even though few will admit it, looks are also important. Maybe 90% of modern gear looks like crap in my opinion. I have a soft spot for the Yamaha AS series since they use the old school design.
Let us not talk price and sound. Let us talk looks. Many times we see a piece of gear before we listen to it.

1. When will the guys designing the gear understand that BLUE(blue/purplish blue) IS BAD? You see it everywhere, starting from the lcd screens, button lights and ending with tube amps. BLUE IS A BAD LIGHT COLOR. Blue is cold and sterile, ruins the mood in the dark. It is bad for your eyes, and affects your sleep pattern. You will disagree, and say "What about the Marantz vintage receivers? They had blue lights also". Yes, but the tone of original blue is softer and the overall beauty of the receiver really compensates.
The right dominant colors for lights/screens in audio should be warm colors like red, orange, yellow, warm white, even soft green, and other variations of these. The warm colors soften and relax, while blue just screams at you. In tube amps it looks absolutely horrible.

2. Shape & looks. Companies seem to have gotten worse at designing good looking stuff. In the past you could buy good looking gear. You just had to search the catalogues to find the looks/performance ratio you liked. Now good looking stuff (with a few exceptions) is almost esoteric. For example look at H/K. in the 80's early 90's they had the 6xx series. Very clean black brushed steel face plates, nice big knobs and simple buttons. Then they introduced that curve in the lower part, like the 680. Ugly and useless even though the thing sounded really good.

Even speakers went the same line, although in a smaller portion, mainly because the shape is dictated by physics. Some speakers impress by their design, for example Quadral speakers, like the old massive Amun or Odin give sort of a phallic impression, like a Jaguar e-type. Or the more recent Cerwin Vega cls-215 which urge you to find a volume knob and turn it up.
The companies are trying to impress and build all kinds of shapes, curves and lines trying to avoid the 90 degree corners. Most of them fail badly. Sometimes there is no reason to improve things that already look good. A pair of big, square minimalist monoblocks painted black that need two people to be moved around don't need bells and whistles. They are massive, and simple, this is why we love them.

I love wood panels, but sadly there are not many who offer them. Again gear using wood paneling is almost esoteric.
Where did the true silver faced gear go?

3. Build quality. Yes, I know we live in a consumer society, and it is almost impossible to build things like in the 70's with thick steel, etc, but a light squeaky cdp will be cheap, no matter how much you pay for it. I saw cdp's worth thousands with phenomenal power supplies and dac's fed with music from a cheap plastic Chinese transport, which can get damaged easy.

Knobs and buttons. Damn those small shiny round squeaky buttons, and the volume potentiometers that turned into joysticks.

Again, this is my opinion. I'm saying nothing about price and sound since these have already been discussed many times.
I just don't like the looks and build of most of the modern gear. They undoubtedly sound better but I don't know if they have the beauty that many vintage things had.

 

[guiller]

My motto as an audio enthusiast is to try to get the most recent TOTL gear that my budget allows for. In the past I got rooted in the 70's and more recently started to have enough money to get recent TOTL gear. More recent gear of this level of quality gives me the same or better level of music enjoyment than older stuff, with the plus that equipment seems to be more reliable (e.g., by keeping track of the breaking events). I don't ever complain and enjoy the best equipment that my budget allows for.

 

[sobolan]

I will only address a few issues.

1. Hence why blue is used.

3.BUT, there is more to a CDP than that, HENCE, why many put money into the PS, DAC system and Analog output. Those affect the sound, the drive portion really doesn't.

1. I said it is only my opinion. Blue light and cold light in general hurts my eyes especially after dark. I can not live without f.lux installed on my pc. And I am certainly not the only one.

3. CDP's evolved a lot in electronics but went back to the stone age with transports. It is not about sound. It is about reliability. I have seen some really good sounding cdp's turned into scrap by the broken plastic of its mechanism. So what is the use of a good sounding unit if it fails because of a 0.02 cent irreplaceable plastic bit? It is not that expensive to build a sturdy transport that will outlast the laser diode.

 

[just dave]

I will only address a few issues.

1. Blue is the light our eyes are more sensitive to. So we can see blue at levels most instruments can't even measure. Hence why blue is used.

2 .Like cars, etc shape is determined by use and aesthetics of the time. This is why speakers are designed this way now. Big Box speakers have issues with face diffraction and the like. Does that mean they sound bad? No, but it is measurable and that is why form and function work together with speakers. Same with cars, etc.

3. You are comparing apples and oranges, which is normal for the 'vintage mavens' on this board. In a CDP, the transport is only one portion and there is not may players in this area. BUT, there is more to a CDP than that, HENCE, why many put money into the PS, DAC system and Analog output. Those affect the sound, the drive portion really doesn't.

Like this....

or

compared to,...

Which do you think would sound better? Better design, better heat dissipation, better electrical system. There is a reason that the more expensive player cost more.

I pick the last one for best heat dissipation.More room inside,less of that electronic junk to get in the way of the heat escaping.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Gentlemen, we are drifting again.

I kind of like an earlier statement about aesthetics. One of the reasons I love vintage is because of how they look! I love two big analog meters in warm orange or blue/green! They are rich colors and light up the room beautifully. But a lot of modern gear uses bright blue LEDs that draw your eye to it in a dim room, but are hard. Not warm at all. There is a reason why vintage Marantz and pioneer are so popular!

However, maybe I am asking too much for a comparison between higher end vintage and $6k modern. Maybe there is no such thing as a $6000 modern amplifier. We can all look at skies the limit gear, but what about the entry level high end modern? Or maybe AKers just don't use them for long?

 

[ggregg]

Just offering a rational possibility of why people prefer certain things, be it old audio equipment or old cars.

Lets use an example of old muscle cars, why do people like them over the new cars, a new Camaro, or Mustang will kick the crap out of anything made back in the hey day of muscle cars, in acceleration, handling, comfort, and virtually every other measure.

So why are people still buying those old cars? I suspect it's some of the same reasons people are buying old amplifiers.

By the way you're comparison of burnt toast, terrible example, it's something you LIKED, not eating some crappy burnt toast. Unless you like burnt toast, I certainly don't.

I do like some of the old muscle cars and some of the old audio equipment. I have some old Marantz, Sansui, Technics and Pioneer, but the main systems I listen to every day are Anthem, Sunfire, Yamaha, and NAD that are much newer and better performing equipment.

No burnt toast for me ....

If old gear was as expensive as the old cars you list, you would have a perfect point.

The thing is, I'm not paying $5k (and it could be much more than that) when I can pay $500 and get 90+% of the sound for 1/10th of the price and I have, many times. I'm not looking for perfection. Just really good. And I have it.

You think it's burnt toast, great for me. One less person to compete with.

 

[Jeffery]

Again, this is just not the place to get opinions on relatively expensive modern gear. Of course there are new $6000 amps, but they are not very well represented on a forum that tends toward vintage gear.

 

[ggregg]

Actually they are pretty well represented by some. Even much more than that. Vintage and new

We are always drifting on this subject as the sides are pretty well defined, yet the arguments continue. No one will even convince me that vintage is not the better value, by a very wide margin, in nearly all cases. Until vintage values climb like a late sixties muscle car. If one wants absolute perfection, and more power to them, then new high end is the way.

 

[whoaru99]

If old gear was as expensive as the old cars you list, you would have a perfect point.

The thing is, I'm not paying $5k (and it could be much more than that) when I can pay $500 and get 90+% of the sound for 1/10th of the price and I have, many times. I'm not looking for perfection. Just really good. And I have it.

You think it's burnt toast, great for me. One less person to compete with.

Again, it's your value opinon vs. performance. If you're a cheapskate at least be big enough to concede there is gear better than you're willing to pay for.

And, yes, in this context I'm a cheapskate too. What I'm willing to spend is a different matter than what I concede is available and despite being able to afford more.

 

[BilboBaggins]

I would put up the Audio Research D250 (which is $3250) against any of the older amps, even ones that were super high end in 70s/80s. More than likely, many of those systems are not around any more due to unobtanium parts and odd designs.

If you want blue meters, McIntosh still makes them. Some things never change

This is exactly my point when I was wondering about longevity! With most vintage gear between early 70s and the early 80s you can still get parts. But even more importantly in my perspective is that Most of the good vintage gear is still working, but maybe not to specification. So a good restore job and it is good for another 35 or 40 years! And I buy antique furniture and vintage household accessories for the same reason. I love quality workmanship that is built to last. It is why I use Apple computers. I've worked on many different kinds of computers and you see the truth when you open it up.

 

[ggregg]

Again, it's your value opinon vs. performance. If you're a cheapskate at least be big enough to concede there is gear better than you're willing to pay for.

And, yes, in this context I'm a cheapskate too. What I'm willing to spend is a different matter than what I concede is available and despite being able to afford more.

Yep, you pegged me. And yes, I concede.

 

[whoaru99]

No one will even convince me that vintage is not the better value, by a very wide margin, in nearly all cases.

And anyone that tried would be a fool.

But, that is not the title question.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Agreed, but the majority are still repairable. And parts units probably aren't as hard to find as the more modern gear.

 

[whoaru99]

Agreed, but the majority are still repairable. And parts units probably aren't as hard to find as the more modern gear.

Have you tried to find a matched rank/set of VFETS lately?

 

[moewillis]

Have you tried to find a matched rank/set of VFETS lately?

Or heaven forbid you blow an output from a top end pioneer receiver (sx-1080, sx-1280, sx-1980)

 

[whoaru99]

For some of those there are modifications.

And, to be fair, for some higher-end amps the service information is not freely available/not available outside the authorized service network.