VPI Turntable Owners Thread
- Thread starter MikeCh
- Start date
They also look really good on it. Congrats on the new table.
Last edited:
edwyun
Super Member
Thanks. I thought I was satisfied with the Scout2 but then came a deal on a demo Prime with full warranty that I just could not refuse.
What was your initial thought of the 10" 3D sound vs the 9" SS (with same cart)?
91r100gs
Lunatic Member
standing by
edwyun
Super Member
Hard to say, whether it is the 10" 3D arm only or the whole Prime setup, but I like what I am hearing. The new arm has a quieter background and provides better resolution and wider soundstage (and adding the feet made that even better). But some may prefer the 9" steel arm which seems to have a slight bit more weight to the sound. As for length, I never had an issue with siblance on the 9" so no issue with that on the 10".
I can see why VPI came out with the second pivot. The steel arm never had issues with quivering but the 3D arm, perhaps because of its manufacture or its slightly less mass, can quiver. The second pivot would limit that.
FWIW the Prime table does measure a bit better in all tests I measured using AnalogMagik.
beatcomber
AK Member
I drove down to Manhattan yesterday and picked up my new-to-me Prime Scout, and this morning I spent like two hours getting it set up. The uni-pivot arm is a lot more fussy than I'm accustomed to, but it all came together, it took time and patience.
I right away noticed that the motor pod vibrated a lot and it made a pretty loud ticking/whirring noise. The owner's manual says that some noise is normal, but this was NOISY. Uh oh. I was also concerned because when I played records, it sounded lean and bass-shy. It seemed pretty obvious that the motor vibrations were affecting the bass reproduction.
I thought about it for a while and finally figured out what the cause was. I checked the screws on the motor pod’s top plate and they were pretty loose - that was the cause of the excessive vibrations, because after I tightened them, the noise and vibrations went away.
I also noticed that some of the oil had seeped out of the top of the motor, probably during transit. I went out and left the motor running for a couple of hours, so that the oil could work its way back down the shaft.
Now the motor is as quiet as a mouse and there are no vibrations being transmitted to the shelf. It sounds GREAT, with rich, plump bass. WHEW!
I right away noticed that the motor pod vibrated a lot and it made a pretty loud ticking/whirring noise. The owner's manual says that some noise is normal, but this was NOISY. Uh oh. I was also concerned because when I played records, it sounded lean and bass-shy. It seemed pretty obvious that the motor vibrations were affecting the bass reproduction.
I thought about it for a while and finally figured out what the cause was. I checked the screws on the motor pod’s top plate and they were pretty loose - that was the cause of the excessive vibrations, because after I tightened them, the noise and vibrations went away.
I also noticed that some of the oil had seeped out of the top of the motor, probably during transit. I went out and left the motor running for a couple of hours, so that the oil could work its way back down the shaft.
Now the motor is as quiet as a mouse and there are no vibrations being transmitted to the shelf. It sounds GREAT, with rich, plump bass. WHEW!
beatcomber
AK Member
I moved the 8MZ over from the AR (which is needing a bit of TLC), so I can offer a direct comparison. I'm still getting familiar with the VPI though. (Today is day #1.)
beatcomber
AK Member
Here's a question... I've read quite a few positive posts on other forums about using a DL-103 on a VPI, which seems to me would be a questionable pairing. Have any of you tried using a DL-103 on your VPI? I'd love to put mine back into action.
Some food for thought:
http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7785
FWIW, I had to use a 3g headshell plate to get my Grado to balance (probably due in part to the added weight of the Counter Intuitive I installed).
Some food for thought:
http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7785
FWIW, I had to use a 3g headshell plate to get my Grado to balance (probably due in part to the added weight of the Counter Intuitive I installed).
beatcomber
AK Member
OK, I just tried the DL-103 on the JMW 9 arm, with two 3g headshell plates added for extra mass. To get the VTF set at 2.5g, the counterweight was about half-way back along the stub.
The results were OK, but unremarkable. Bass was pretty weak and it just didn't pop. I used to have the DL-103 on a Jelco SA-750D (with added mass on the counterweight), so I know how good a DL-103 can sound; this didn't do it.
I just put the Grado 8MZ back on it (again using one 3g headshell plate), at it sounds much much better. It has nice slam and rich lower octaves, and overall sounds nicely balanced. With the VTF set at 1.65g, the counterweight is positioned close to the pivot, which is an optimal position for tracking accuracy.
The results were OK, but unremarkable. Bass was pretty weak and it just didn't pop. I used to have the DL-103 on a Jelco SA-750D (with added mass on the counterweight), so I know how good a DL-103 can sound; this didn't do it.
I just put the Grado 8MZ back on it (again using one 3g headshell plate), at it sounds much much better. It has nice slam and rich lower octaves, and overall sounds nicely balanced. With the VTF set at 1.65g, the counterweight is positioned close to the pivot, which is an optimal position for tracking accuracy.
beatcomber
AK Member
IIRC VPI lists the effective mass as 10.2g, which is pretty low. Some have questioned the accuracy of that number however.
VPI does make a variety of counterweights available, ranging in weight from 100-200g. I'm not sure which is on my Prime Scout.
phoenixengr
Active Member
In 2015 VPI said the updated ADS would be ready in 2nd or 3rd qtr of 2016. In 2016 they said it would be ready 2Q/3Q 2017. In 2017 they said it would be ready 2Q/3Q 2018. In 2018 they said it would be ready 2Q/3Q 2019. In 2019 they said it would be ready 2Q/3Q 2020. You get where I'm going with this?
In the meantime since speed control is in vogue now, below is another currently available option especially if someone is looking at a Sota Cosmos w/Eclipse. From what I understand, speed accuracy will not be an issue on the HW-40. Harry showed me this motor on the test bench and I can assure you that the picture I took does not convey how massive it is. He pulled the top cover off and explained the internal construction of the motor and it was impressive. For those that prefer a conservative rectangular plinth, the HW-40 is a beautiful 'table in person. IMO and for my personal tastes the SOTA "kitchen cabinet" look does not come close (I don't want to upset anyone but the SOTA styling is not for me. TBH the perceived wow in the sound when the suspension is doing it's thing also bothers me). I do love the aesthetic of the HW-40 (although I'd prefer the Uni-Pivot on it though) as well as the very different styling of the Prime Signature and Avenger model line. I told Harry that they were smart to have beautiful models that cater to both design preferences. He smiled.
The $15K HW40 uses a 500W $600 industrial motor made by ThinGap, driven by a $570 industrial controller made by Elmo motion control that uses trapezoidal (block) commutation. The output of the controller is 10kHz PWM (36VPP square waves with no filtering) and is very noisy electrically. There is a good technical review of the HW40 motor drive here: http://www.turntablepsu.com/vpi.html#VPI%20HW40
I put a probe directly under the table, terminated with a 47K resistor and measured ~180mVPP spikes at 10kHz:
I measured ~2.9mVPP of high frequency noise at the output of an Ortofon 2M MM cartridge that was over the record, but not riding in the grooves:
I don't think I would want to use this table with a MM cart. I also would not place the phono preamp anywhere close to the table.
Beside the electrical noise, the main 18lb platter rides on top of the 6" subplatter as seen in the top photo. When I went to install the platter onto the sub, I assumed a tight fit, therefore expected the platter to bind on its way to being seated and figured it would take some finesse to properly fit. To my surprise, the platter dropped onto the sub without any interference. Thinking it might be a fluke, I removed it and tried it again; it wasn't. The fit was obviously loose and this was confirmed by moving the platter in any direction and seeing, feeling and hearing the platter slide from side to side. I measured the run-out at the edge of the platter using an eccentricity gauge and found it to be 6-7 mils:
http://www.phoenix-engr.com/images/VPI HW40 Eccentricity1.mp4
http://www.phoenix-engr.com/images/VPI HW40 Eccentricity2.mp4
6 mils of eccentricity will create 0.2% WOW at the inner grooves and 0.12% WOW at the outer grooves.
To ensure this wasn't caused by machining errors on the platter, I also tested the eccentricity of the spindle:
http://www.phoenix-engr.com/images/VPI HW40 Spindle.mp4
Not bad, for $15,000.
Edit: This was not caused by shipping damage either. If you look at the bottom of the spindle, it moves the same amount as the top, so it is not bent. The run-out at the spindle appears to be the same as at the platter edge, so it is eccentricity, caused by the loose fit with the subplatter. If you saw how the components are packed for shipping, to damage a 25 lb slab of aluminum this badly would have destroyed the entire package. The (double) box showed no signs of distress or mishandling.
Last edited:
beatcomber
AK Member
My new toy:
With all due respect, with any these so called "high-end" turntables anyone can dissect the sub-parts costs (especially cottage brands) and the resulting markup would be horrifying to some. How much in total parts would you imagine the belt drive $10K armless Sota Cosmos or $12K armless Millennia have?
Regardless, the HW-40 didn't seem to do to bad in these measurements even when compared to a new Technics SL-1000R. The HW-40 seems to have world class wow, flutter, noise and rumble numbers. I think it also has better numbers in those aspects than every other uber high-end table they've provided measurements for thus far (except the Technics).
https://www.hifinews.com/content/vpi-hw-40-anniversary-turntable-lab-report
https://www.hifinews.com/content/technics-sl-1000r-turntablearm-lab-report
I've been trying to find your Eagle PSU for my VPI SM but maybe one day will spring for the Condor.
Would you happen to have measurements (wow, flutter, noise and rumble) similar to the ones done by Miller Audio Research on the $10K SOTA Cosmos with you speed package and any aftermarket arm?
Last edited:
phoenixengr
Active Member
You'll have to ask SOTA what there standard markup is, I have no idea their BOM costs, other than the motor and Eclipse controller; the margin on those is no where near what VPI's margins are (the number I've seen quoted is 5x cost).
As you would expect, the $15K HW40 sounds good and measures reasonably well, but no where what VPI claims (0.004% W&F). The HiFi news report shows slightly lower numbers than I measured for W&F (0.04-0.07 vs 0.02-0.04%), and I wonder if they filtered out the low frequency (WOW) component. The platter eccentricity will be masked by the record's WOW component and is removed by most measurements. As for speed accuracy, the HiFi news reported -.03% (33.32), where I measured 33.328-33.351; compare that with 33.333 ±0.005 for the SOTA with the Eclipse motor.
The HW40 performance does not appear to be any better than a well tuned belt drive rig; the heavy platter is its saving grace IMO, as it covers up for a lot of sins.
I don't have any other numbers on the SOTA Cosmos, but Positive-Feedback did a review on the table here:https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/sota-cosmos-eclipse-turntable/
Not that measurements are the end all but I haven't seen any belt drives, at any price, measured in the same manner by Miller Audio Research that performed as well as the HW-40. Gotta give VPI some credit.
Again, with all due respect it's not fair to point me to subjective and heavily biased review when it was you who first brought up measurements and deconstructed a competitors table. I actually assumed you owned turntablepsu.com but even if you don't why not ask SOTA to send you a Cosmos to measure and pick apart? You definitely have the skills. You went through the trouble to get access to an HW-40 so why not do the same for the SOTA Cosmos or Millennia? You have a good relationship with them and they are selling a product you designed. I've always been curious how that suspension affects the measurements on the SOTAs.
I understand that there is a history between you and VPI and I respect that but let's be fair. If you're going to measure and dissect a competitors table then at least you should do the same for a table of the manufacturer that purchased your line. I'm sure speed accuracy will no longer be an issue on the SOTAs that incorporate your fine products so that's a given but why stop there? Why not run complete tests on the Cosmos & Millennia and make them public?
As for the that subjective review you linked I'll take it with a heavy grain of salt. It's extremely biased. Not only that, the writer is a member on this forum and he say's he ordered and owns that table yet in the review he makes it seem like it was a review sample that SOTA sent to him. Which is it? Did he pick his finish, order and pay for his Cosmos or did they just send him one to review and promote on the forums? Either way it's extremely misleading if you ask me:
"The Cosmos Eclipse that Donna and Christan sent me is finished in blood wood"
Since you're an engineer that has a close relationship with SOTA I would have hoped that if you cite measurements and graphs of a VPI product to knock it in a VPI Owners Thread, you would at the very least also post similar measurements of the competing SOTA products that incorporate your devices and not just point us to a fanboys opinion. Again, with all due respect, doing that sounds more like sour grapes and is a bit of a turn off.
Apologies for the candor, as I said I am a fan of your products.
Last edited:
phoenixengr
Active Member
With all due respect, I'm retired, and I go where my interests take me. I'm certainly under no obligation to review every (or any other) turntable on the market just because I chose to look into the claims of one particular model/mfr. If SOTA wants to send me a table for technical analysis, I'd be glad to accommodate them. As to motivation, I'm more likely to look into something that I think is being inaccurately characterized in the marketplace than a mfr who makes legitimate (and believable) claims or one who backs up their claims with data rather than rhetoric.
PF is a professional review site, so I doubt they are any more biased than any of the other reviewers. You asked for information on the Cosmos and I did not have any 1st hand measurements so I provided you with what I consider a reliable source for further review. As with all reviews, take it with a grain of salt. FYI, I have had no correspondence with the PF reviewer before, during or after his review.
You took exception with my pointing out the prices of the motor and controller in the HW40; you seemed to think that I was making a point about the cost of the finished table vs what you perceived as low cost components. I was actually making the opposite point: I think the motor is overpriced for a mass production unit, and the same goes for the controller. While both are well made and fairly high tech, I believe there are better alternatives available which are better suited for a low speed, low torque, slow acceleration, high accuracy application like a DD table. I also think using block commutation is perfectly fine for a motor on a CNC machine, but sinewave drive using FOC is much better suited for a turntable. For all the emphasis VPI puts on going "all analog" in their designs, they sure picked a peculiar way to drive the HW40 which is not only digital, but IMHO, a very noisy design (electrically).
For what it's worth, in listening tests with the HW40, I thought it compared favorably to my DIY belt drive with a Jelco 750 arm, Corian plinth an 3 phase BLDC motor driven by the Condor PSU. My only complaint with the HW40 was the bass, which I found over emphasized, fat, wooly and poorly controlled with little to no imaging; it reminded me of when I rented and I could hear the BOOM-BOOM through the walls when the neighbors turned up their stereo. As for the measurement vs listening argument; I don't have any problem with that. My problem is with a company who makes claims that defy belief without any supporting data, then runs for cover of "how does it sound" when someone challenges them on the measurement side. You can't have your cake and eat too.
PF is a professional review site, so I doubt they are any more biased than any of the other reviewers. You asked for information on the Cosmos and I did not have any 1st hand measurements so I provided you with what I consider a reliable source for further review. As with all reviews, take it with a grain of salt. FYI, I have had no correspondence with the PF reviewer before, during or after his review.
You took exception with my pointing out the prices of the motor and controller in the HW40; you seemed to think that I was making a point about the cost of the finished table vs what you perceived as low cost components. I was actually making the opposite point: I think the motor is overpriced for a mass production unit, and the same goes for the controller. While both are well made and fairly high tech, I believe there are better alternatives available which are better suited for a low speed, low torque, slow acceleration, high accuracy application like a DD table. I also think using block commutation is perfectly fine for a motor on a CNC machine, but sinewave drive using FOC is much better suited for a turntable. For all the emphasis VPI puts on going "all analog" in their designs, they sure picked a peculiar way to drive the HW40 which is not only digital, but IMHO, a very noisy design (electrically).
For what it's worth, in listening tests with the HW40, I thought it compared favorably to my DIY belt drive with a Jelco 750 arm, Corian plinth an 3 phase BLDC motor driven by the Condor PSU. My only complaint with the HW40 was the bass, which I found over emphasized, fat, wooly and poorly controlled with little to no imaging; it reminded me of when I rented and I could hear the BOOM-BOOM through the walls when the neighbors turned up their stereo. As for the measurement vs listening argument; I don't have any problem with that. My problem is with a company who makes claims that defy belief without any supporting data, then runs for cover of "how does it sound" when someone challenges them on the measurement side. You can't have your cake and eat too.
Yes, I get it. I've read your many posts and the issues you have with VPI in several threads elsewhere. You have made your views crystal clear.