VTA method???

[AvFan]

I believe you are confused by VTA/SRA. Here is picture from pspatialaudio (see link above, I advise to read that article):

View attachment 3380262

You beat me to it; I was about to post a similar diagram from Wally Tools. Interestingly it shows VTA from the tip of the stylus versus the center of the contact patch and I don't know that I've seen that approach before. Regardless, VTA is related to SRA but they are not the same thing. However, move either VTA or SRA a degree and the other will change by the same amount.

I'm not sure how it is possible to determine the VTA of most cartridges anyway since the cartridge body hides the location of the cantilever pivot point. The only thing that can be observed (with the appropriate microscope) is the SRA and absent the ability to see the SRA you have to trust the manufacturer's recommendation. As I noted before that all goes out the window if a retipped cartridge is used. Not to cast doubt on the quality of their work as a group but I'm not confident they can replace either the stylus or stylus/cantilever assembly and achieve the original cart's geometry. I have had some carts come back from reputable outfits and their VTA was noticeably off, way off.

This is the best view I have of a stylus to figure out the SRA. The cart is an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze with their Replicant stylus and the back facet is supposed to be perpendicular with the record surface. Close, but this view is not good enough to say with certainty what the static SRA actually is. If you regularly use retipped cartridges then you need a good microscope to see the stylus SRA.

 

[radiokom]

As I noted before that all goes out the window if a retipped cartridge is used. Not to cast doubt on the quality of their work as a group but I'm not confident they can replace either the stylus or stylus/cantilever assembly and achieve the original cart's geometry. I have had some carts come back from reputable outfits and their VTA was noticeably off, way off.

It simply means their reputation is false. Correctly retiped cartridge VTA remains the same.

 

[cafe latte]

You beat me to it; I was about to post a similar diagram from Wally Tools. Interestingly it shows VTA from the tip of the stylus versus the center of the contact patch and I don't know that I've seen that approach before. Regardless, VTA is related to SRA but they are not the same thing. However, move either VTA or SRA a degree and the other will change by the same amount.

I'm not sure how it is possible to determine the VTA of most cartridges anyway since the cartridge body hides the location of the cantilever pivot point. The only thing that can be observed (with the appropriate microscope) is the SRA and absent the ability to see the SRA you have to trust the manufacturer's recommendation. As I noted before that all goes out the window if a retipped cartridge is used. Not to cast doubt on the quality of their work as a group but I'm not confident they can replace either the stylus or stylus/cantilever assembly and achieve the original cart's geometry. I have had some carts come back from reputable outfits and their VTA was noticeably off, way off.

This is the best view I have of a stylus to figure out the SRA. The cart is an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze with their Replicant stylus and the back facet is supposed to be perpendicular with the record surface. Close, but this view is not good enough to say with certainty what the static SRA actually is. If you regularly use retipped cartridges then you need a good microscope to see the stylus SRA.

View attachment 3380274

A good retipper with be able to get alignment and rake angle better than factory as a retipper can spend hours on a retip, the factory can't.
A good retipper will be able to change a stylus from a replicant to a micro ridge for example and keep the same rake angle. Not all retippers will be able to though.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

You beat me to it; I was about to post a similar diagram from Wally Tools. Interestingly it shows VTA from the tip of the stylus versus the center of the contact patch and I don't know that I've seen that approach before. Regardless, VTA is related to SRA but they are not the same thing. However, move either VTA or SRA a degree and the other will change by the same amount.

I'm not sure how it is possible to determine the VTA of most cartridges anyway since the cartridge body hides the location of the cantilever pivot point. The only thing that can be observed (with the appropriate microscope) is the SRA and absent the ability to see the SRA you have to trust the manufacturer's recommendation. As I noted before that all goes out the window if a retipped cartridge is used. Not to cast doubt on the quality of their work as a group but I'm not confident they can replace either the stylus or stylus/cantilever assembly and achieve the original cart's geometry. I have had some carts come back from reputable outfits and their VTA was noticeably off, way off.

This is the best view I have of a stylus to figure out the SRA. The cart is an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze with their Replicant stylus and the back facet is supposed to be perpendicular with the record surface. Close, but this view is not good enough to say with certainty what the static SRA actually is. If you regularly use retipped cartridges then you need a good microscope to see the stylus SRA.

View attachment 3380274

Yes the replicant contact patch is not in the middle of the stylus like other stylus.
Chris

 

[Thomas_AA]

I believe you are confused by VTA/SRA. Here is picture from pspatialaudio (see link above, I advise to read that article):

View attachment 3380262

Nope. I know well what VTA and SRA is. Read Yosh pages as well. I’ve used his pages for 20 years.

 

[Thomas_AA]

This means only one thing - your cartridge is defective, return it to the vendor for replacement.
The optimum settings for VTA and SRA should coinside.

Nope again. Read my link above about the various VTA among cartridges.

 

[Thomas_AA]

You beat me to it; I was about to post a similar diagram from Wally Tools. Interestingly it shows VTA from the tip of the stylus versus the center of the contact patch and I don't know that I've seen that approach before. Regardless, VTA is related to SRA but they are not the same thing. However, move either VTA or SRA a degree and the other will change by the same amount.

I'm not sure how it is possible to determine the VTA of most cartridges anyway since the cartridge body hides the location of the cantilever pivot point. The only thing that can be observed (with the appropriate microscope) is the SRA and absent the ability to see the SRA you have to trust the manufacturer's recommendation. As I noted before that all goes out the window if a retipped cartridge is used. Not to cast doubt on the quality of their work as a group but I'm not confident they can replace either the stylus or stylus/cantilever assembly and achieve the original cart's geometry. I have had some carts come back from reputable outfits and their VTA was noticeably off, way off.

This is the best view I have of a stylus to figure out the SRA. The cart is an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze with their Replicant stylus and the back facet is supposed to be perpendicular with the record surface. Close, but this view is not good enough to say with certainty what the static SRA actually is. If you regularly use retipped cartridges then you need a good microscope to see the stylus SRA.

View attachment 3380274

Look at this link. Correct SRA and > 30 degree VTA.

Measuring SRA

This photo shows the angle measured on a Replicant (Ortofon) or Geiger type stylus ONLY!

www.analogplanet.com

 

[AvFan]

Look at this link. Correct SRA and > 30 degree VTA.

Measuring SRA

This photo shows the angle measured on a Replicant (Ortofon) or Geiger type stylus ONLY!

www.analogplanet.com

I don't know the point you are trying to make. The link is to a photo of an Ortofon Replicant stylus that is correctly set up when the back facet of the stylus is 90° to the record surface. Most styli shapes (conical, elliptical, micro ridge, line contact) are correctly set up when a line through the middle of the stylus and through the center of the groove contact points beginning at the tip is around 90° to the record surface. This is the best photo I could get of my Dynavector's line contact stylus and while it isn't close and clear enough to establish the SRA it is reasonably close to being perpendicular to the record surface after following Dynavector's recommended method to set VTA/SRA.



This is a photo I took of a Shelter 501II retipped with a line contact stylus on an hollow aluminum alloy cantilever that I own and with the reflection off the record surface it might be possible to set SRA. It would be better if I could get a closer look at the stylus/record interface. However, the VTA of the cantilever is thankfully irrelevant to this process since you can't see the cantilever's pivot point; it is all about the orientation of the stylus compared to the record surface.



We may be saying the same thing but please help me understand the point you are trying to make.

 

[Thomas_AA]

I don't know the point you are trying to make. The link is to a photo of an Ortofon Replicant stylus that is correctly set up when the back facet of the stylus is 90° to the record surface. Most styli shapes (conical, elliptical, micro ridge, line contact) are correctly set up when a line through the middle of the stylus and through the center of the groove contact points beginning at the tip is around 90° to the record surface. This is the best photo I could get of my Dynavector's line contact stylus and while it isn't close and clear enough to establish the SRA it is reasonably close to being perpendicular to the record surface after following Dynavector's recommended method to set VTA/SRA.

View attachment 3380468

This is a photo I took of a Shelter 501II retipped with a line contact stylus on an hollow aluminum alloy cantilever that I own and with the reflection off the record surface it might be possible to set SRA. It would be better if I could get a closer look at the stylus/record interface. However, the VTA of the cantilever is thankfully irrelevant to this process since you can't see the cantilever's pivot point; it is all about the orientation of the stylus compared to the record surface.

View attachment 3380469

We may be saying the same thing but please help me understand the point you are trying to make.

SRA is correct but then look at the cantilever angle which is 29.7 degree, meaning that the VTA from stylus tip to pivot is > 30 degree. Hence, far from the 20 degree standard cutting angle or VMA. The point I make is that VTA can vary 20-30 degree between cartridges. Again, as in my first post, set cartridge for correct SRA and forget VTA.

 

[AvFan]

SRA is correct but then look at the cantilever angle which is 29.7 degree, meaning that the VTA from stylus tip to pivot is > 30 degree. Hence, far from the 20 degree standard cutting angle or VMA. The point I make is that VTA can vary 20-30 degree between cartridges. Again, as in my first post, set cartridge for correct SRA and forget VTA.

Thanks for clarifying; we are saying the same thing with regards to the lack of importance of VTA and that it is SRA that matters. I made a leap of faith with my new cartridge that Dynavector had built it so the SRA was correct when the top of the cart was parallel to the record at the recommended VTF. I think it was a very small "leap" given Dynavector's reputation for excellent build quality and the fact the Te Kaitora Rua has been in production for a number of years. My rather crude photo of the TKR's stylus did indicate that SRA was most likely correct or as close as possible after setting the top of the cart parallel to the record surface using my method.

I bet someone will point out that they know there are bad Dynavectors produced and I can see how that might happen but I expect that to be rare. During my search for a new cartridge I read numerous reviews, received good input from our fellow AK members and poor build quality was noted only once from a number of years ago. Regardless, buy purchasing new if the cartridge was not correctly built, damaged while being shipped or failed during the first year of ownership I can return the cartridge to the dealer and receive a replacement.

Regardless, I am looking at a Dino-Lite microscope that has enough magnification and resolution to set SRA and will be a belt to the suspenders offered by a manufacturers or retipper's build accuracy and warranty.

 

[catBot]

Nope again. Read my link above about the various VTA among cartridges.

Whatever...
All you have to do - is to acheive the IMD minimum, not the "nicely-looking" VTA.

If the IMD minimum differs greately from the vendor's recommendation - this is the FACT that the cartridge or the stylus are defective.

 

[catBot]

I am looking at a Dino-Lite microscope that has enough magnification and resolution to set SRA

It is not supposed to be set/adjusted/measured by vision. It is supposed to be done by IMD measurement of a special test record, for example - the LB208.

 

[Thomas_AA]

Whatever...
All you have to do - is to acheive the IMD minimum, not the "nicely-looking" VTA.

If the IMD minimum differs greately from the vendor's recommendation - this is the FACT that the cartridge or the stylus are defective.

It's a compromise of different designs of today. If you are looking at the typical hollow aluminum cantilever it is bent at the end at a certain angle that provides both support for the diamond and (usually) correct VTA. When using boron rods or other solid cantilevers, it cannot be bent but is shaved off at an angle to support the diamond. It causes an extra protrusion of the stylus tip vs the aluminium and the effective VTA gets higher (tip to pivot). The "replicant" stylus is another variant where the VTA is not kept at ≈20° (because SRA needs to be correct). Whether all the Ortofons most expensive cartridges with the replicant stylus would be "defective", is something that is matter of discussion. Since the disappearance of hollow beryllium cantilevers with "bent" tip ends as the aluminum variants, there is optimal cantilever out there. You can make the aluminium shorter (as Ortofon OMs) to place resonance above 20 kHz, but distortion is no better overall (which may be due to the shorter cantilever). So again, compromises.

Stylus Cantilever for Analog Record | Orbray Co., Ltd.

Also, VTA IMD distortion is something that can be measured with test records, but its audible contribution on music records is debatable. Some of the lowest THD are had with solid boron cantilevers - despite their higher VTA. There is also no fixed recommendation of VMA - the latest one, according to DIN45547(1981) and IEC98(1987), is 20-25 degrees.

 

[mr_petit]

Does any of you have actual IMD measurements to show where VTA adjustment within the usual range of a tonearm (lets say +/-5mm; 5mm up and 5mm down from the mean position) actual makes a measureable difference, or even better: soundfiles where that difference is audible?
I mean, you can debate about this stuff indefinately, but it's all moot if it doesn't make an actual difference.
It would take the discussion immensely along if the actual difference was shown and better yet... be heard.
I mean the VTA adjustment most arms have only result in a degree adjustment of roughly max. plus and minus 1.3 degrees (5mm up and 5mm down from the center position for a 9" tonearm).

 

[radiokom]

Does any of you have actual IMD measurements to show where VTA adjustment within the usual range of a tonearm (lets say +/-5mm; 5mm up and 5mm down from the mean position) actual makes a measureable difference, or even better: soundfiles where that difference is audible?
I mean, you can debate about this stuff indefinately, but it's all moot if it doesn't make an actual difference.
It would take the discussion immensely along if the actual difference was shown and better yet... be heard.
I mean the VTA adjustment most arms have only result in a degree adjustment of roughly max. plus and minus 1.3 degrees (5mm up and 5mm down from the center position for a 9" tonearm).

There are in Eminent Technology ET-2 manual Part2 (attached)

 

[Thomas_AA]

Some measurements at ASR

Fun with vinyl measurements

I'm curious how you arrived at these numbers. Are you reading this off the cartridge or through a phono section?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mr_petit]

There are in Eminent Technology ET-2 manual Part2 (attached)

That test needs 3 degrees to show a measurable difference of just 1dB in the intermodulation distortion test. That is well over twice as much as a normal arm has as an adjustment range.

 

[mr_petit]

Some measurements at ASR

Fun with vinyl measurements

I'm curious how you arrived at these numbers. Are you reading this off the cartridge or through a phono section?

www.audiosciencereview.com

So over 10 degree deviation in VTA (that is roughly 750% more adjustment than the average arm has) results in 1% extra distortion. I know the post say's 2%, but the graph shows at 20deg 1,5% distortion for that Jico and 0,5% at 30deg. In my book, that's 1% difference.
How are you gonna compensate for over 10deg on a tonearm? You have to mount wedges at the back or front of a cartridge. That's a huge amount.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Thomas_AA]

So over 10 degree deviation in VTA (that is roughly 750% more adjustment than the average arm has) results in 1% extra distortion. I know the post say's 2%, but the graph shows at 20deg 1,5% distortion for that Jico and 0,5% at 30deg. In my book, that's 1% difference.
How are you gonna compensate for over 10deg on a tonearm? You have to mount wedges at the back or front of a cartridge. That's a huge amount.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Exactly. Adjust for SRA, forget VTA. For some type of music, it might be audible, but I do not know really.

In my experience, cartridges with good sound have had the following characteristics;
(i) new and clean,
(ii) wide overload margin (90-100 µm),
(iiI) low HF distortion (< -30 dB at 5 kHz), and
(iv) ideally stylus resonance as high as possible (keeping a low crosstalk throughout the audio band).
(v) within +/-1 dB 50 Hz-16 kHz.
(vi) low crosstalk in the midrange (around -30 dB or lower)

 

[catBot]

The "replicant" stylus is another variant where the VTA is not kept at ≈20° (because SRA needs to be correct). Whether all the Ortofons most expensive cartridges with the replicant stylus would be "defective", is something that is matter of discussion.

WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!
Just check the Specs there...