Were Renaissance 90s the best Infinity?
- Thread starter Endzone
- Start date
I am still learning a lot about these Infinity's. I didn't realize that the Ren 90's were some of the best Infinity's out there. I thought the IRS Beta's, IRS Gamma's RS-1's, RS 2.5, RS 4.5 and the Quantum Source Lines were the better units of the Infinity drivers.
rabbit
Well-Known Member
No the Ren90's are not the best IMHO. However they are probably more popular than most of the other Infinity models.
Actually I think the Ren 90's can lay claim to being the best monopole speaker Infinity ever made under $14,000 (ie: under the Epsilon). That would be the fairest way to rate them. That is a HUGE wrap for a speaker which had a starting list of $3700! They were and still are a phenominal value speaker when you consider they can be driven with a single high current amp happily & be placed in even modest size listening rooms with ease.
Last edited:
Yes, to me! The pair I bought are also late-sale (1998) & in virtually mint condition (barely used), so i'm wrapped
Agreed, patience is the key..don't rush, and don't buy unless the examples are in excellent shape.I would consider most of the models you mentioned as having better sound than the 90's. I would also add the RS-IIb's to that list. I've heard the RS-IIb's and I think they sound better, mostly due to the IIb's having better bass and by their abillity to project more sound, but that's only my opinion.
The term "better" is subjective. Some people do not want a huge speaker. Some people prefer a speaker that projects less bass. Some people don't want to spend $10,000 for a pair of speakers, that would give them a small sound quality improvement over the 90's. For those types of people, the 90's would "better" fit their needs.
I dare say that some people would even consider the Bose 901's or some hard rocking CV's to be better!
Well, they say a picture is worth 1000 words, but I guess I don't have 1000. I'm not an engineer so the crossover frequencies and bandpass for that particular speaker (mid-bass) are fine with me. So I'm not qualified to comment on the design--I'm not an engineer or speaker designer. But of course it's a rather simple formula for determining the resonant frequency of LC circuits. 1/6.28FC = 6.28FL where F is the frequency, C is capacitance and L is inductance.
Nope don't care who manufactured the parts. I don't know a good electrolytic cap mfgr from a bad one.
BUT, the construction, yes I have a serious problem with that. First of all I would like to see the components mounted on a PCB with traces rather than point-to-point wiring. The cables should be attached to post or else hard wired to a PCB via through holes. The caps should not be stacked on top of each other and held down with glue. They should all be mounted on a PCB and maybe secured with tied wraps. The leads coming off the inductors look hideous and they seem to be touching the case of the inductor. This looks at best like a build up in the research lab rather than a production run. I can't believe this came from the factory this way. This must of been somebodies home brew modification? Replacing parts would be difficult with this "rat's nest".
EZ, Home brew no, but that x-over has definitely been mucked around with. Yeah the Ren's x-over looks a bit agricultural, but isn't it all about the sound? Keep in mind that Infinity over several years poured countless hours into developing and perfecting the Ren's x-over which was designed and calibrated by computer. Point to point wiring? Some of the best amps in the world use good old fashioned point to point wiring. Yes, a pcb might look prettier, but at the end of the day, Infinity sent all thier Renaissance speakers out of the factory precisely set to very tight tolerances. Final point, the Ren 90 x-over schematic you posted is the 'Rev A' x-over which was the first version. There were other evolved versions which were used on later production units, which might explain another member's observation of the differences between his two pairs. Cheers :thmbsp:
No offense intended, but the addition of "monopole" knocks out a huge percentage of what most people would consider Infinity's finest speakers - IRS, Beta, Gamma, RS-1, RS-IIB, RS-4.5, in fact virtually all their top of the line speakers prior to 1990.
If you want to redefine the question as to whether the Ren is the best "monopole" Infinity, then they very possibly might be better than anything except the Epsilon (I've never heard a Sigma or an Omega, so can't comment). But, in reference to the OP's question, while I think the Ren is a fine speaker, no way do I consider it Infinity's finest speaker.
David
Last edited:
None taken, and my addition of "monopole" was intentional and made in the full knowledge that this knocks out the above dipole models you referred to. Dipole speakers emit rear radiation as well as front, placing even greater importance on room acoustics. Honestly, how many people do you know have dedicated, acoustically tuned listening rooms who are able to get the most out of dipole speakers? Not too many in my experience, and for those of us who do not have an ideal listening room, or who have not employed room tuning devices, dipole speakers create more problems than any perceived benefits in the form of out of phase room reflections and other sonic ills. So for that reason, I feel Infinity's best monople designs deserve to be considered amongst Infinity's best speakers ever made..
So to summarise, I don't think, nor was I trying to imply that the Renaissance 90 is Infinity's finest speaker...it's just Infinity's finest speaker in my (and doubtless many other's) imperfect listening space
Last edited:
monopole vs dipole
Actually, dipole speakers have certain advantages over monopole designs w/ regard to room interaction. The dipole radiating pattern has a null 90 degrees off axis which makes placement relative to side walls not as critical. As you state the back wall reflection does need to be dealt with and teh speakers do need to be positioned somewhat out into the room. So far as I can tell that seems to be the preferred placement for monopole speakers as well. I suppose I do have some bias as my Infinities are Gammas and RS-IIs, but I find both relatively easy to place in my room.
Just my $0.02
J. Tucker
IRS Gamma
RS-II
ADS L710
Actually, dipole speakers have certain advantages over monopole designs w/ regard to room interaction. The dipole radiating pattern has a null 90 degrees off axis which makes placement relative to side walls not as critical. As you state the back wall reflection does need to be dealt with and teh speakers do need to be positioned somewhat out into the room. So far as I can tell that seems to be the preferred placement for monopole speakers as well. I suppose I do have some bias as my Infinities are Gammas and RS-IIs, but I find both relatively easy to place in my room.
Just my $0.02
J. Tucker
IRS Gamma
RS-II
ADS L710
Hmm, I won't say you're wrong, because it sounds like you've got first hand experience, however I will say I have heard many Ren 90 owners say they sold their Omegas and Sigmas because they preferred the sound of the Rens. Although in regard to the Sigmas, the majority of feedback i've read from Infinity owners say the Sigmas and Ren 90's are very close with opinions swaying on personal taste. Technically, both speakers have pros and cons, and although I haven't a-b'd them myself, On identical equipment in the same room, I would think that you'd end up with two camps, or schools of thought on the subject - both swearing one or another speaker was better sounding. I suspect those who prefer a "big" sound would prefer the Sigma however.
Re: the Omegas, all I can tell you is that from the majorityof posts and reviews I have read online suggest the Ren 90's sounded better to most people's ears.
Dave you said the Renaissance speakers weren't technically monopole, my understanding is that that vent only exists to vent pressure, not sound, which means it is a true monopole...not dipole as you suggested. Infinity never described those speakers as dipole to the best of my knowledge. Anyway, it's good to have a healthy debate and share our views
Last edited:
Yeah that's interesting. Yeah I have a friend who jams his ML CLS speakers right up against a side wall & they sound great. Mind you, he has nice, flat rear walls & good rear spacing. Dipoles sound more ambient & give a bigger "live" sound which may or may not appeal to all, so that depends on personal preference. There's no doubt dipoles are more sensitive to placement in relation to rear walls..I have stairs behind my speakers, so dipoles would sound horrible in my space...
You've said the Renaissance speakers weren't technically monopole, my understanding is that that vent only exists to vent pressure, not sound, which means is a true monopole...not dipole as you suggested. Infinity never described those speakers as monople to the best of my knowledge. Anyway, it's good to have a healthy debate and share our views
The vent is a highly damped transmission line designed to reduce back pressure on the EMIM and eliminate rear wave reflections, so you are correct, it was not designed as a true dipole. Check out the section on the High Energy EMIMs on page 7 of the Renaissance Technical White Paper for a discussion on the theory behind it.
David
Last edited:
Yeah I read through the Renaissance' White paper a couple of wks ago & that was my vague memory. Thanks for posting the link
The Gammas were incredible speakers & although they share a similar basic character to the Rens, the Gammas had slightly superior low midrange presence (thanks to thier L-Emim) & bass authority. Incidentally, have you read the interesting review of the Gammas which I think is still posted on (the late) BobbyShred's site? Well worth a read. Contgrats on your baby Betas!
Last edited:
Endzone
Active Member
Melbourne Guy, I've been to your fair city--although it was in 1988. I've been to all 7 continents and Greenland, and I still consider Melbourne, Australia and Buenos Aires, Argentina my 2 favorite places. The ship I worked on actually loaded at the Shell Oil Terminal in Geelong, and I took a train to Melbourne. I visited the University (actually bought a book there called "Understanding Oscillators"), I remember Bourke Street and also went to an electronics supply store in Huntingdale or Hunting Glen. People were very friendly. The brick houses reminded me of my hometown--Cincinnati, Ohio. They say Melbourne has really changed in the past 20 years though.
rabbit
Well-Known Member
The Infinities are not strictly true dipoles because most EMIM's have damping material behind the back of the diaphragm which is designed to attenuate the back energy. Also the EMIT's which are a monopole construction are usually matched by a lesser number firing in reverse phase to the back.
This puts the nulls at more than 90 degrees to the off axis and reduces the comb effect inherent in a dipole design. The Genesis speakers are designed like this as well.
regards
david
