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What can $4K get you if you are a newbie?

blackfly

blackfly

Fidelius Claritus
Okay: now that I have your attention I need your thinking caps on for a minute.

I am a hardened audiophile with a "good" system. I have been debating LP for a while and now that cables are really the only thing I can play with the thought of an LP system has entered my mind. Moreover, being the perfectionist that I am and having acute attention to detail I think LP and I would get along fine. Note that I have not even gotten into the sound aspect of it.

I admit this: I have NO LPs at all. None. Everything would have to be bought, most likely on the used market. Most of my music is not on LP (Rammstein, later Judas Priest etc) so digital will be here with me. I am trying to complement my system, I think.

I have an excellent system for vinyl. Good preamp (look up the C 05 and tell me what you think in the LP regard). Good stands that do not vibrate. But, where to begin.

I am NOT GOING to get an entry table and upgrade. I have a Rotel RC 5000 vintage preamp that I no longer use and I am looking to sell it to finance the table. Realistically I should get what I paid for it, about $4000 which on the international market should not be hard. So what would $5K, say, get me? I have a Rega dealer here that I could get a P5 or P7. But I am not a fan of their store. I could look around but I have limited time.

Any ideas? I am not set on the idea as of yet, but it is getting me thinking. I could be creating a monster (you all hope, I know). But I am VERY leery of the idea of having no vinyl to play, to say nothing of the idea condition is everything. Moreover, there is another path I would like to try (tubes) that might also be interesting.

I would welcome any ideas.
 
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Have you thought of spending about $1500 on a TT/cartridge and the other $2500 on vinyl and cleaning supplies? $4000 would get you a fantastic setup, but without any music it would just sit there and look pretty. A used VPI Scout would make a nice base, and a Dynavector 10x5 or other ~$500 cart would extract plenty of beautiful sound from the grooves to do your system justice I would think. A Scout and a 10x5 are hardly entry level IMO (in fact it's a bit of a dream setup for myself), but I don't know if they would live up to your expectations or not.

The question to ask first is what music is out there on vinyl that you desire? If you can't think of many titles why get a vinyl playback setup? One major reason I keep my vinyl rig around is I enjoy old jazz/funk and a variety of classic rock. I can still find records in the aforementioned genres for very little at garage sales and bargain bins. I haven't run across any holy grail first pressings, etc, but I have plenty of wonderful music on vinyl that makes the upkeep on a turntable worth it. I also enjoy the hunt for those treasures, I can spend hours flipping through records, so vinyl brings me enjoyment beyond simply listening to it.
 
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Why do you want to spend $4K? My $150 combo killed my old room-mates mega-buck CD system. Find yourself a good vintage table (lots of SOTA was made right before CD came out and ended the party) along with a nice preamp/cart and have fun. I would highly recommend getting a good cleaning system while you are at it. You might be shocked at how good this 'old crap' sounds!!
 
You and vinyl should be an excellent fit being a "perfectionist" and you pay attention to detail. Vinyl isn't a plug and play medium, it's very hands on with the setup of the catridge/stylus, tonearm and turntable. You also have to figure in the cleaning of vinyl and the need for a record cleaning machine like a VPI 16.5 and cleaning fluids like AIVS. With $4,000 you should be able to put togeather quite a nice vinyl system especially if you go with a preowned turntable. With $3,000+ to spend on a turntable cartridge Audioghon would be a good place to look with quite a few turntables listed in that price range. It would be a good way to avoid the Rega dealers markup especially if your not comfortable with the store.
 
Mchaz said:
Have you thought of spending about $1500 on a TT/cartridge and the other $2500 on vinyl and cleaning supplies? $4000 would get you a fantastic setup, but without any music it would just sit there and look pretty. A used VPI Scout would make a nice base, and a Dynavector 10x5 or other ~$500 cart would extract plenty of beautiful sound from the grooves to do your system justice I would think. A Scout and a 10x5 are hardly entry level IMO (in fact it's a bit of a dream setup for myself), but I don't know if they would live up to your expectations or not.

The question to ask first is what music is out there on vinyl that you desire? If you can't think of many titles why get a vinyl playback setup? One major reason I keep my vinyl rig around is I enjoy old jazz/funk and a variety of classic rock. I can still find records in the aforementioned genres for very little at garage sales and bargain bins. I haven't run across any holy grail first pressings, etc, but I have plenty of wonderful music on vinyl that makes the upkeep on a turntable worth it. I also enjoy the hunt for those treasures, I can spend hours flipping through records, so vinyl brings me enjoyment beyond simply listening to it.
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Exactly. I have researched it and most of my music, on LP is "high demand". Not very promising. Moreover, I am FIRMLY convinced that with sources you get as much as you can, even if it means "stretching" a bit.

I get the vinyl ritual. I think I am one for it. Problem is: if you can't find your favourite music on LP, then why bother.
 
majick47 said:
You and vinyl should be an excellent fit being a "perfectionist" and you pay attention to detail. Vinyl isn't a plug and play medium, it's very hands on with the setup of the catridge/stylus, tonearm and turntable. You also have to figure in the cleaning of vinyl and the need for a record cleaning machine like a VPI 16.5 and cleaning fluids like AIVS. With $4,000 you should be able to put togeather quite a nice vinyl system especially if you go with a preowned turntable. With $3,000+ to spend on a turntable cartridge Audioghon would be a good place to look with quite a few turntables listed in that price range. It would be a good way to avoid the Rega dealers markup especially if your not comfortable with the store.
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And you would trust the table/arm/cart to arrive in the shape I bought it at? I would rather buy new and not have the "shipping issue" of which I am so familiar.
 
Not hardly. I won't say that Linn is bad, far from it, but the heart of the system is the transducer and it's companion phono stage. All good turntables should be silent and get out of the way, allowing the mechanical bits (stylus and cantilever) to their thing and the phono section to "decode" that signal and send it along to the "system".

So starting where you are, I'd say a nice phono stage with adjustable loading will be the biggest help. Then as you inevitably move through the cartridge "scene", you can maximize the capabilities of each one. You WILL not be able to live with just one cartridge forever. Curiosity alone will get you to swap in one more, at least.

Of course I'm a cartridge library guy. I have three or four minimum for each TT, and some a fair bit more. So, for me that means an S or J arm with shells. But that is not all bad. There are good arms, even if some of them use somewhat expensive proprietary headshells.

There are a ton of good used vintage tables out there that will meet your needs. New will kill the budget with the depreciation just walking out the door. So, I'd get a fill in table while working out the rest of the bits - phono amp, or pre-amp section, wall mount for table or massive base, cabinets to store your 1000 records (at $0.50 each, it does not take long :)), RCM of some sort, etc.

OK, now you have some vinyl, a decent TT and a few good cartridges. What are you going to do with it? Just play it? Rip it? Do mix tapes/CDs? What's the end game?

If it's system play - just being in the music and flipping the sides every 20 minutes or so - cool - do you have that space assembled? Can you isolate the TT from all feedback sources? Do you crank your system? If you do, the budget just went up to continue effective isolation at high db levels and the complexity of the table went up too.

If all this is in line, you should be looking for your top step table. The replacement for the one you started with while debugging your vinyl system. Maybe you are looking for a Yamaha GT2000 and it'll take a year to get one? Maybe you're looking for an SP-25 or a KD-750, or a SR929? Or an older Lenco or Empire? But you've had a chance to get all the bits into the system and then back-fill with the dream table when it shows.

Vinyl is a system, it's not a TT or a cartridge. Synergy rules here. Building synergy is not easy. It's easy enough to get to 90%. Beyond that, it's about your listening style, space and ears. What will end up working out in the end is not predictable at this point and I see no reason to blow the budget on the first pitch :(
 
If it were me...

I would buy a good vintage table for <$300, put a $200 cart on it, and buy a VPI 16.5 or better cleaning machine.

All of these will hold most, if not all, of their value. Buy some good vinyl - tinker with it, and see if it is for you. Then buy something like a mid level VPI, Rega, or Clearaudio table.
 
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To add, if you don't own any LPs, then you probably don't know what you want from a vinyl system...yet. The set up I recommend will show you, and if you break something...No big deal. There is a learning curve for both your ears and you engineering inner self :D

If you are set on spending $4k, make sure you have had time to decide exactly where you want to spend it...

Play with some MC and MM carts, and see what you like. See if you prefer detail or PRAT, etc. Take your time and listen to a lot of different styles and see what works best for you. Vinyl is a very personal thing.
 
I would, as a newcomer to vinyl, buy the following...

VPI Classic
Clearaudio Maestro Cartridge
Vincent PHO-8 Phonostage
Some nice interconnects

I would attempt to buy them all used if possible.

One can always pick up and album or two from time to time, and then later get an RCM. Then as time goes by, buy some accessories, like a good record brush, stylus pressure gauge, and a record weight.
 
blackfly said:
Exactly. I have researched it and most of my music, on LP is "high demand". Not very promising. Moreover, I am FIRMLY convinced that with sources you get as much as you can, even if it means "stretching" a bit.

I get the vinyl ritual. I think I am one for it. Problem is: if you can't find your favourite music on LP, then why bother.
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I suspect that my musical taste is very similar to yours. I've done very well on the bay picking up 90s era bands. AIC / Metallica / Iron Maiden / JP all out there. But you do tend to pay for it. Getting vinyl is part of the fun. The hunt is the thrill of the chase.

A lot of the stuff you want is actually available on current releases. Bands still put out vinyl here and there. You will pay $20 to $30 for new vinyl. I've paid less than that for sealed vintage vinyl on ebay. You will start out spending a ton to build your collection, then you will slow down and just look for the deals.
 
I probably have less than $4,000 in my 65 turntables and 16,000 records. And I STILL don't have all of my favorite music.
 
MaxSeven said:
:yikes: 65 TT's? That's $61.54/each. Where do you keep all that stuff?

Have you every considered opening a vintage audio shop? :)
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The house that I live in has an attached garage that was converted to a living room which is now an audio room.

BTW, I'm listening to David Gilmour's About Face right now on vinyl on a $9.99 thrift store Pioneer PL-530. :thmbsp:
 
backfly I was refering to Audiogon, not Ebay, a world of difference when it comes to packaging/shipping turntables. Like someone else said your looking at a big depreciation on new right out the door, significant enough that you could buy an exspensive cartridge for what you will lose. I'v bought a few turntables from Audiogon and the packaging was bombproof and delivered without a scratch.
 
16,000 records? You obviously have more space than I do! :sigh:

Getting back to the OP's question...

I'd get a Yamaha GT-2000. GREAT turntable that will consume about 1/4 of your budget, or a little more with shipping. Very hard to beat for the money; it performs like a true "audiophile" or "exotic" table, for a lot less money. A decent phono pre and a VPI 16.5 will bring that up to about half the budget. (As an alternative to a new phono preamp, one built into some vintage gear might save you a few hundred bucks off that, and still give good performance -- if you want to take the time to find such a thing.) Another $500-$1000K will get you a decent cartridge or two (depending on how high up you want to go, and whether you buy new or used), and perhaps also an Ikea Expedit to store your records in. You'll still have somewhere around a thousand bucks to buy records to fill it with. If you buy mostly secondhand from garage sales and such at $.50 - $1.00, that could fill up most of the Expedit nicely, still leaving you a little space for later additional purchases.
 
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