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What can $4K get you if you are a newbie?

MaxSeven said:
I would, as a newcomer to vinyl, buy the following...

VPI Classic
Clearaudio Maestro Cartridge
Vincent PHO-8 Phonostage
Some nice interconnects

I would attempt to buy them all used if possible.

One can always pick up and album or two from time to time, and then later get an RCM. Then as time goes by, buy some accessories, like a good record brush, stylus pressure gauge, and a record weight.
Click to expand...

Excellent suggestion, but my thought when reading this;
The VPI and those great parts (or the GT2000 as suggested by Arkay) would be a great 2nd step after
getting an affordable but decently performing table with a good, matching cart and some records to see if vinyl is 'for you'.

Another suggestion; If you're not afraid of some DIY a (modded) vintage heavy platter table like a Lenco, Rek-o-Kut or Empire is a great route to take to.

(Modded) heavy platter Lenco's;
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=2115.0

'An' Empire example;
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=300927

I'm currently rebuilding a couple of Lencos and listening to a Technics SL1200 with Denon DL160 through the phono in of one of my pre-amps/receivers on a daily basis.
 
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The OP wants a good turntable to begin with:

"I am NOT GOING to get an entry table and upgrade. I have a Rotel RC 5000 vintage preamp that I no longer use and I am looking to sell it to finance the table. Realistically I should get what I paid for it, about $4000 which on the international market should not be hard. So what would $5K, say, get me? I have a Rega dealer here that I could get a P5 or P7. But I am not a fan of their store. I could look around but I have limited time. "

Also he evidently wants a new deck. I think the suggestion of the VPI Scout is a good option, though I'd add Clearaudio and Well Tempered to the equation too.
 
voltcontrol said:
...would be a great 2nd step after
getting an affordable but decently performing table with a good, matching cart and some records to see if vinyl is 'for you'.
Click to expand...

The VPI's hold their value quite well. So simply sell the stuff if it is discovered that the world of vinyl and record players are a no-go.
 
MaxSeven said:
The VPI's hold their value quite well. So simply sell the stuff if it is discovered that the world of vinyl and record players are a no-go.
Click to expand...

A valid argument. (I do feel they {VPI} lose their value here quite a bit, but I don't know USA pricing/used value. ;) )
 
I'm on the side of 'buy used cheap yet good 1st"

If you still like vinyl in six months then splurge into it... Beside, it is always good to have a vintage used backup
 
To be honest, if I'd had the money when I re-discovered vinyl I would have bought expensive first and not wasted money on upgrades, some of which weren't. I got expensive with the rest of my kit and its paid dividends, as the only stuff I've bought was for a second system and haven't replaced anything in the main system for 10 years.

Buying cheap can be costly. Also, top range turntables tend to keep their prices well, and often dealers will give decent exchange value for something else.
 
Different paths...

If I knew then what I know now I would have bought a couple of L75's when they were still cheap here.
 
For me (and I'm sure others), creating and following the upgrade path is part of the pleasure. YMMV, of course.

One more vote to remember to include a cleaning machine your budget. That will result in a very significant increase in sound quality.
 
I would put a lot of thought into this idea of entering the vinyl world at this stage. To get good vinyl playback its a significant investment, and it also consumes a lot of space. You need room for a table and a record cleaning machine, as well as space to store the vinyl.

Now the question of vinyl. I think one thing you have to consider, especially if you go to the used market for your records, is how tolerant you are of random noise. Pre-owned records are often going to have a certain level of damage, its hard to get one perfectly quiet. People who are used to spinning vinyl are able to overlook, or at least tolerate this type of noise. People who base their systems heavily on CD seem to be less able to overlook this.

Before you undertake this venture, I would recommend getting some time in front of a system that has a good turntable in it. Either at a friends or a store, and see if you can get a feel for the inherent differences between the two formats. One thing to consider, and this is kind of important. Very often a system that is optimized for vinyl does not sound as good when CD is playing, and visa versa. It is very difficult to get a system balanced to the point where both formats sound equally good.

With all those caveats being said, I really enjoy the sound of vinyl. I have an extremely good CD rig, but the vinyl system is a step ahead of it. Sounds great with all kinds of music, and has a gracefulness that the CD player can't quite get. For instance I was listening to a $1 grab record last night that I was testing a DIY cleaning solution on, and the turntableimaged better, had better layering, and was equally dynamic as the CD. I had a copy of the CD to compare against. But a good TT set up can be expensive. In terms of retail new dollars the CD player cost 3.5K while the turntable price...and this includes phono stage....is 7.5K, so there is a significant difference in cost.

Think long and hard about this venture before you plunge in. If you are going to buy new, you will lose money if you choose to sell. Personally I would go to Audiogon for a fairly new, but pre-owned table, and that way if you chose to opt out, it can be sold with minimal money being lost. Get a table with factory packing and I think you would be fine in terms of shipping. If it concerns you, use the 3 day economy price of FED EX or UPS and I believe it gets better handling. At least that way its shipped air, and not handled multiple times at different hubs if it goes across country. I think you are going to get the most for your money this way.

Turntables have significant differences in the way they sound. I personally prefer a non suspended table, but others like different types of designs. This is one reason you need to go hear some tables for yourself, and get an idea of what path you want to travel. On Audiogon there is a nicely updated VPI 19 with Graham 2.0 arm in the 2K+ range that would be a nice table. There is also a SME Type 10, table only for 3.2K. Add a SME Type V arm for 1.5 to 2K and you got an excellent rig. But cartridges have as different a type of sound as say loudspeakers do. So you need to understand what you are buying. Whether is warm and romantic like a wood bodied Grado, or quick and lively like a Vandenhul. To be successful you are going to need some knowledge.

Good luck with your audio journey, wish you the best in this endeavor.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
I have been around the bend and back with a host of vintage tables. Lencos, Empires, linear trackers, Linn Axis, Systemdek, two Technics 1210s, a big and capable Sony 2251..I have a nice backup deck, the Clearaudio Marantz TT-15s1, and the VPI Classic. If I knew then what I know now, and it was available back then, I'd have saved ALL the money I put into vintage decks, every cent of it, and put it into the VPI. The rest would go to a Benz Glider and eventually a dedicated phono stage (or right now, if you can get the VPI used off of audiogon). As nice as the phono stage is in the C-05, and I'm sure its probably nice, I will bet you a nice dinner that it is bested by a $1000 stand alone phono stage. Or even the relatively cheap DB systems DB-8 if you budget is maxed out after the table/cart. But within your budget, I'd get the table and cart first, the phono stage after that. As for albums, I wouldn't include them in your budget. Just buy them as you find them. You will have many before you even realize you've spent as much as you have.

VPI Classic.
Benz Micro Glider.
best phono stage you can afford (after auditioning the one in the C-05) with the rest of your budget starting with the DB-systems DB-8 and going up from there...
 
Just some musings on my part-



Best investment would be a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine, $350-$550 used/new.

That's the best first move.

For a table/arm? You could get a VPI Classic table, or Yamaha GT-2000, or Technics SP-10 or Linn LP12 or tricked out uber-modified Technics SL1200MK2 or SP25, with anything from a stock arm like the VPI's unipivot, Linn's Ekos or Ittok or Akito to an SME 309 or IV, for $2500 total.

Carts? Dynavector, Benz Micro, Ortofon and Denon offer some fine moving coils from $330-$1200. Less, if used. Factor in a SUT or MC phono pre as well. From $200 to thousands, an MC phono pre should be carefully considered. Lower priced models like the $179 Cambridge Audio is a good choice, as later you can get it modified to really perform greatly. The Musical Fidelity V-LPS MM/MC Phono Stage at $149 is probably the better sounding in stock form. Depending on your budget, you may however have cash left over for a tube phono pre.

Or... you could go the MM route, or HOMC route, and forego the MC phono pre.

Good current MMs are the Audio Technica AT150MLX, the Ortofon Bronze and Black, or for a HOMC there's the new Dynavector DV-20X "H" or BenzMicro Benz Ace S"H".
 
thedelihaus said:
Just some musings on my part-



Best investment would be a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine, $350-$550 used/new.

That's the best first move.

For a table/arm? You could get a VPI Classic table, or Yamaha GT-2000, or Technics SP-10 or Linn LP12 or tricked out uber-modified Technics SL1200MK2 or SP25, with anything from a stock arm like the VPI's unipivot, Linn's Ekos or Ittok or Akito to an SME 309 or IV, for $2500 total.

Carts? Dynavector, Benz Micro, Ortofon and Denon offer some fine moving coils from $330-$1200. Less, if used. Factor in a SUT or MC phono pre as well. From $200 to thousands, an MC phono pre should be carefully considered. Lower priced models like the $179 Cambridge Audio is a good choice, as later you can get it modified to really perform greatly. The Musical Fidelity V-LPS MM/MC Phono Stage at $149 is probably the better sounding in stock form. Depending on your budget, you may however have cash left over for a tube phono pre.

Or... you could go the MM route, or HOMC route, and forego the MC phono pre.

Good current MMs are the Audio Technica AT150MLX, the Ortofon Bronze and Black, or for a HOMC there's the new Dynavector DV-20X "H" or BenzMicro Benz Ace S"H".
Click to expand...
The OP specified new, and no upgrades.
 
avole said:
The OP specified new, and no upgrades.
Click to expand...


Well, then edited to apply:




Just some musings on my part-

Best investment would be a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine, $350-$550 used/new.

That's the best first move.

For a table/arm? You could get a VPI Classic table or Linn sondek LP12 or Sota Jewel or Sapphire.

Carts? Dynavector, Benz Micro, Ortofon and Denon offer some fine moving coils from $330-$1200. Factor in a SUT or MC phono pre as well. From $200 to thousands, an MC phono pre should be carefully considered. Lower priced models like the $179 Cambridge Audio is a good choice, as is the $149 Music Hall pa1.2, however the Musical Fidelity V-LPS MM/MC Phono Stage at $149 is probably the better sounding of these three in stock form. Depending on your budget, you may however have cash left over for a tube phono pre or nicer offering.

Or... you could go the MM route, or HOMC route, and forego the MC phono pre.

Good current MMs are the Audio Technica AT150MLX, the Ortofon Bronze and Black, or for a HOMC there's the new Dynavector DV-20X "H" or BenzMicro Benz Ace S"H".
 
Who wants a journey of discovery? The point is about the music, not the hardware. There's no law against buying the best first so you can listen in all tranquillity to a sublime piece of music sublimely reproduced and never feel the need to upgrade.

I suspect many of us had we started with sufficient capital would have gone for the expensive and quality option. Seriously, why bother with an AT95E is you can afford a Micro Glider?
 
I respectfully disagree that an upgrade path is a recipe for happiness. It was a recipe for unhappiness for me. I was only ever happy listening to records with my first setup, which was so humble and crappy that I couldn't think of it as 'gear', and my current setup, which is far and away better than the rest of my 'gear', and my ability to improve upon it. The upgrade path made me think of the gear, not the music, and I now regret a lot of that. I really, in all honesty, wish I had started where I am now. Was there a learning curve? Certainly a bit but I could have learned just as much by starting out with a better system. I'm sick of gear, I just want to listen to music now.
 
Clearaudio Performance with an Ortofon Rondo Bronze would be my recommendation for less than 4k.

One thing to remember though that if you spend the full 4k on a table, cart and phono stage you will in the end spend a whole lot more for an RCM, possibly isolation, a cover and of course, lots of records. Something to keep in mind.
 
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avole said:
Who wants a journey of discovery? The point is about the music, not the hardware. There's no law against buying the best first so you can listen in all tranquillity to a sublime piece of music sublimely reproduced and never feel the need to upgrade.

I suspect many of us had we started with sufficient capital would have gone for the expensive and quality option. Seriously, why bother with an AT95E is you can afford a Micro Glider?
Click to expand...

When it comes to table/arm/cartridge combinations, "One man's best is another Man's disappointment" To just take someones word on whats best is setting oneself up for second guessing. An investment of $5000 in a vinyl rig demands quite a bit of research, and listening to understand the character differences in different table /arm/cartridge combination to maximize that kind of investment. IMHO

Regards,
Jim
 
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