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What's the most coherent sounding 2-way speakers you've ever heard ?

Out of all my speaker systems only two are two way. I like big speakers and I like (put on fire suit) the "real" studio monitor sound. I have a pair of 604-8G's that do many things well but my favorite two ways are my JBL 4435's. They sound good at low levels and have plenty of get up and go when you want it. They're large format but they are about as smooth and neutral as any two way I've heard, all the way through.
 
3A Apogee

Not sure if it's the best I have EVER heard, but lately my 3A Apogees have been really knockin it out of the park. Having owned Dynaco A25s, stock and then modded, I can wholeheartedly say that the Apogees easily squash them. The coherence is incredible and frankly on par with several newer pairs I have auditioned in the last couple of years including Castle, Focal and Paradigm.

They require a high current amp to reveal the tight and controlled bass. I have never encountered a pair of speakers so dependent on amplification. Almost all of the amps I have tried with these have not cut it. I have read many of posts regarding tubes with the Apogees, but my tube amp couldn't bring out the best in them.

They play as loud as most audiophiles would care to hear, but volume may be their only limit as they won't go to deafening party levels. The Apogee are entry level from this line up, I would love to try something further down the trough.

4930439840_9d3e5477f7_z.jpg


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Anyone mentioned the Tannoy Churchill Wideband yet? Yeah, it's got a supertweeter, but it's basically just a 2-way concentric.

The comment in reference to the Altec 604 above- about it revealing stuff they didn't know they were recording- that also can apply to the Churchill, in spades. Think of the Churchill Wideband, as what Altec might have designed and built, if they built it now, and had modern technology to do it with.

It's got bass to kill for, great dynamics, utterly neutral tonal balance, and probably just about the best-caliber imaging available at any price...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Anyone mentioned the Tannoy Churchill Wideband yet? Yeah, it's got a supertweeter, but it's basically just a 2-way concentric.

The comment in reference to the Altec 604 above- about it revealing stuff they didn't know they were recording- that also can apply to the Churchill, in spades. Think of the Churchill Wideband, as what Altec might have designed and built, if they built it now, and had modern technology to do it with.

It's got bass to kill for, great dynamics, utterly neutral tonal balance, and probably just about the best-caliber imaging available at any price...

Regards,
Gordon.

Hey, Gordon.... Been meaning to ask... What's that speaker in your avatar?
 
Lots of mentions for the Dynaco A25s:thmbsp:,,I don't have them (would love too though) but I do have a set of A35s and they do their job flawlessly in pretty much any musical situation. I've owned these speakers for quite a while and have been listening to these particular ones since my dad bought them new back in the early 70s.:D

J.R.

I've heard some say they like the A35 better. I love the sound of the A25, but I would probably choose the A35 if I was looking to go with something smaller like that (as opposed to the much-bigger speakers I'm running now).
 
The HD-1's (Meyer Sound) sound very coherent to me.
At least as long as you're pretty much in front of them. Things like snare drum rim shots are very well reproduced. I find that type of a sound exposes coherent speakers, or speakers that smear that type of sound.
 
Having owned Rogers Studio 1 two-ways for many years (the Studio 1 is essentially a two-way with a supertweeter; the Studio 1a did away with the supertweeter) I can say I understand their appeal, but I will never own two-ways again. The midrange-woofer runs too high, and compromises the midrange because of its mass. The volume and depth of the bass is compromised by the small size of the midrange-woofer. Porting helps, but causes somewhat muddy bass. I now own Yamaha NS-1000Ms and they trounce the Studio 1 and any two-way, in all respects.

Studio 1:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9nOx735x9Oc/Sl_Z1UGmtQI/AAAAAAAAHUY/qYAf2TCXGdE/s400/IMG_2902.JPG

Studio 1a:

http://www.mhennessy3.f9.co.uk/rogers/studio1a_1.jpg

Combining the mid-range with the woofer compromises both. There is no way around it. A big woofer and a small mid-range can do their jobs better.

The Studio 1 and the NS-1000M have a similar tonal balance, but the speed of the latter is just incredible. The mid-range and bass Studio 1 sound blurred. The Studio 1 is a very good speaker, but the NS-1000 is superb.

Here is the story:

http://www.mhennessy3.f9.co.uk/rogers/others.htm

Two-way speakers involve compromises that I just cannot bear with. Three-ways overall sound better to my ears. Of course, that does not mean every three-way is better than every two-way. I am speaking of products of comparable quality.
 
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Having owned Rogers Studio 1 two-ways for many years (the Rogers Studio 1 is essentially a two-way with a supertweeter; the Studio 1a did away with the supertweeter) I can say I understand their appeal, but I will never own two-ways again. The midrange-woofer runs too high, and compromises the midrange because of its mass. The bass is compromised by the small size of the midrange-woofer. Porting helps, but causes somewhat muddy bass. I now own Yamaha NS-1000Ms and they trounce the Studio 1 and any two-way, in all respects.

Studio 1:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9nOx735x9Oc/Sl_Z1UGmtQI/AAAAAAAAHUY/qYAf2TCXGdE/s400/IMG_2902.JPG

Studio 1a:

http://www.mhennessy3.f9.co.uk/rogers/studio1a_1.jpg

Combining the mid-range with the woofer compromises both. There is no way around it. A big woofer and a small mid-range can do their jobs better.

The Studio 1 and the NS-1000M have a similar tonal balance, but the speed of the latter is just incredible. The mid-range and bass Studio 1 sound blurred. The Studio 1 is a very good speaker, but the NS-1000 is superb.

Here is the story:

http://www.mhennessy3.f9.co.uk/rogers/others.htm

I've heard none of the symptoms/limitations you've described in modern 2-way speakers. And measurements seem to back up my hearing on this one. Get out of the '70s and explore what a modern 2-way loudspeaker can do. The Harbeth SHL-5, roughly the same idea as the Rogers Studio 1 ( and the Spendor BC-1 that I have, and who's sound I'll use for this comparison) are quite a different sounding beast, and nearly as coherent top to bottom as my ESL-63s. The BC-1 exhibits some of the limitations you describe, and there's a slight raggedness in the midrange. Not sure if that's the tweeter struggling to go low or the woofer to go high. But the SHL-5 does NOT have this, not at all. And the much smaller KEF LS-50? While technically not a full range speaker, it goes low enough to enjoy without augmentation and if anything, it sounds like it is slightly boosted in the midrange. And yes, it is ported, but I would put it against nearly any sealed box speaker, especially from the '70s, for tight and accurate bass response.

The SHL-5, though it has a SuperTweeter, is basically a 2-way and would function fine without the extra high-end augmentation (per their designer, IIRC), and here at home replaced an excellent 3-way loudspeaker, with dedicated midrange driver. The Sony SS-m7. Which is perhaps one of the most coherent 3-ways I have heard, and yet it still does not represent the same standard of sound as the Harbeth speakers across the all important midrange (though it is, admittedly close, for a speaker I paid $200 for as opposed to $5000).
 
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I've heard none of the symptoms/limitations you've described in modern 2-way speakers. And measurements seem to back up my hearing on this one. Get out of the '70s and explore what a modern 2-way loudspeaker can do. The Harbeth SHL-5, roughly the same idea as the Rogers Studio 1 ( and the Spendor BC-1 that I have, and who's sound I'll use for this comparison) are quite a different sounding beast, and nearly as coherent top to bottom as my ESL-63s. The BC-1 exhibits some of the limitations you describe, and there's a slight raggedness in the midrange. Not sure if that's the tweeter struggling to go low or the woofer to go high. But the SHL-5 does NOT have this, not at all. And the much smaller KEF LS-50? While technically not a full range speaker, it goes low enough to enjoy without augmentation and if anything, it sounds like it is slightly boosted in the midrange. And yes, it is ported, but I would put it against nearly any sealed box speaker, especially from the '70s, for tight and accurate bass response.

The NS-1000 uses a beryllium mid-range that trounces everything in its path (its diaphragm is much lighter than that of the mid-range woofer combination drivers). The woofer-midrange of any two-way cannot hope to compete with it. It is physically impossible. (You have to listen side by side to hear the differences, though). The NS-1000 is the second-best speaker I have heard (not counting some Wilson monstrosity that requires a moving van to transport). The best 'small' speaker I have heard is the Kenwood Model seven, a four-way. Occasionally I go to audio shops and listen to other speakers, even big very expensive ones like Revels. One time I even noticed the amp being used to demo the speakers was inadequate to drive them properly, so they switched amps to something beefier. It sounded better, but still harsh. Nothing compares to the NS-1000s. Nothing (except maybe later Yamaha models that all but impossible to get now)..

Diaphragm material is the limiting factor.

Electrostatics are good too, but to get volume they have to be huge. I am discussing dynamic designs only here.

I own Stax electrostatic headphones (Lambdas). Most speakers pale in comparison/ Not the NS-1000s.
 
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Off the top of my head, over the years I've liked the Dynaco A-25, Rogers LS3/5A, KEF 103.2, Celestion SL-600, Energy Reference Connoisseur, Mirage MRM-1 and lately the horrendously expensive Magico Q1 and the not so expensive KEF LS-50s.
 
The NS-1000 uses a beryllium mid-range that trounces everything in its path (its diaphragm is much lighter than that of the mid-range woofer combination drivers). The woofer-midrange of any two-way cannot hope to compete with it. It is physically impossible. (You have to listen side by side to hear the differences, though). The NS-1000 is the second-best speaker I have heard (not counting some Wilson monstrosity that requires a moving van to transport). The best 'small' speaker I have heard is the Kenwood Model seven, a four-way. Occasionally I go to audio shops and listen to other speakers, even big very expensive ones like Revels. One time I even noticed the amp being used to demo the speakers was inadequate to drive them properly, so they switched amps to something beefier. It sounded better, but still harsh. Nothing compares to the NS-1000s. Nothing (except maybe later Yamaha models that all but impossible to get now)..

Diaphragm material is the limiting factor.

Electrostatics are good too, but to get volume they have to be huge. I am discussing dynamic designs only here.

So...one speaker, and all 2-ways are bunk? Your argument would imply that the NS-1000 is really the only capable speaker ever made, the way you've phrased it. Imagine a much smaller tweeter than can play into the range of the much larger midrange of the NS-1000, and suddenly your weight argument doesn't make as much sense to me. I'm aware of the NS-1000. It's a fantastic speaker. But it's existence doesn't trump every speaker made then or since. Just look at all the speakers made now using a variation of the Air Motion ribbon tweeter. Or look at a modern two way using a Beryllium tweeter, such as the Usher Be-718. Absolutely coherent through the midrange. You're talking about a transparency thing with the NS-1000...has nothing to do with frequency response from the upper bass on up. It's important, but its not driver coherency. If anything, the speed of the Be midrange could cause a lack of integration with the woofer. Does it? Not to my ears, but its certainly the type of conclusion one could come to give the basic logic you're using for the supremacy of the NS-1000 in the face of all speakers.

I have ESLs. In real world listening the SHL-5 is very similar in presentation though slightly lacking in transparency (and slightly trumping in dynamics, a tradeoff). All through its drivers. Absolutely coherent. Driver integration doesn't solely belong to beryllium.

I'm surprised you liked the Wilsons, only because I can't stand them. I hear an unnatural sounding Focal tweeter fighting with a bunch of other drivers in a fancy hi-fi sounding box on top of another box that sounded completely disconnected to the sound. At least the Watt/Puppy. The Sasha sounded much nicer.
 
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To me, a friend best described the Wilson's when he said they were "belching behemoths".

That's as good of a summation as I've heard.

A friend of mine, not into audio, was given a pair of the last iteration of the Watt/Puppy as a thank you for a job. After a week, he shoved them into a closet where they stayed and didn't 'get' the hobby until I took him to audition a...2-way! The Harbeth Compact 7es3. Not that his decision had anything to do with it being a 2-way, but he remarked that it "sounded like music, not a stereo".
 
Aerial 5Bs great mid range. But they are power hogs you will need some to get the most out of them. Also when setup correctly Platinum Audio Solos.:music:
 
So...one speaker, and all 2-ways are bunk? Your argument would imply that the NS-1000 is really the only capable speaker ever made, the way you've phrased it. Imagine a much smaller tweeter than can play into the range of the much larger midrange of the NS-1000, and suddenly your weight argument doesn't make as much sense to me. I'm aware of the NS-1000. It's a fantastic speaker. But it's existence doesn't trump every speaker made then or since. Just look at all the speakers made now using a variation of the Air Motion ribbon tweeter. Or look at a modern two way using a Beryllium tweeter, such as the Usher Be-718. Absolutely coherent through the midrange. You're talking about a transparency thing with the NS-1000...has nothing to do with frequency response from the upper bass on up. It's important, but its not driver coherency. If anything, the speed of the Be midrange could cause a lack of integration with the woofer. Does it? Not to my ears, but its certainly the type of conclusion one could come to give the basic logic you're using for the supremacy of the NS-1000 in the face of all speakers.

I have ESLs. In real world listening the SHL-5 is very similar in presentation though slightly lacking in transparency (and slightly trumping in dynamics, a tradeoff). All through its drivers. Absolutely coherent. Driver integration doesn't solely belong to beryllium.

I'm surprised you liked the Wilsons, only because I can't stand them. I hear an unnatural sounding Focal tweeter fighting with a bunch of other drivers in a fancy hi-fi sounding box on top of another box that sounded completely disconnected to the sound. At least the Watt/Puppy. The Sasha sounded much nicer.

I didn't say I liked the Wilsons. They were being driven by Krell amps and the sound was impressive in scale. I was certainly not able to compare them with anything I was familiar with, as they were in a showroom.

The problems of speaker design are well known. Good, deep, powerful bass requires moving a lot of air. That means a large diaphragm. A large diaphragm cannot move very fast compared to a smaller lighter one. It's a 'division of labour' thing. I owned what is essentially a two-way for 20 years (Rogers Studio 1). Though it was a very good speaker, it does not come close to the NS-1000 in the mid-range. The high end was gorgeous, with two tweeters. It is a two-way in the sense that there is one driver for bass and mid-range. Its successor (the Studio 1a) was a 'true' midway with a single tweeter. The reason that two tweeters were used in the Studio 1 was probably that the range of each driver was not quite sufficient. The Studio 1a did use a single tweeter (a different one), and a slightly different woofer-midrange driver.

The ideal size for a woofer seems to be 12" (300mm). Woofers that are smaller leave a little bit to be desired in terms of power, and larger ones are necessarily a bit slower.

The woofer of the NS-1000 is, I believe, optimised for speed, and thus does not go as deep as some others, including the NS-690, its little brother.

The overall impression of the NS-1000 is very coherent. I am sure that a lot of effort went into integrating all the aspects of crossover slopes and driver characteristics. I have heard lots of speakers, at all kinds of price points, Revels and Spendors included. Aside from the Kenwood Model seven, the NS-1000 wins hands down.

You simply cannot get a single driver to cover the bass and midrange and do it as well as you can with separate drivers, all things being equal; you have to be willing to live with the limitations of volume and bass extension. The LS3/5a is a perfect example. It was intended as a mobile monitor for the BBC, but it ended up being a cult speaker. It sucks, in my opinion, for anything except what it was designed for. It does not fill a room with music, it has an upper bass hump, etc. It is coloured and does not play loud. For guitar pieces or perhaps violin solos, it is a decent speaker. But it is not a full-range speaker like the Studio 1, which uses the same tweeter.

I believe a typical three-way has crossover points of 600Hz and 6KHz. The Rogers Studio 1 runs the woofer-midange up to about 2 or 3 KHz, and the tweeter goes from 2KHz to 13KHz, the supertweeter from 13KHz to 22KHz. I can try to verify these, but this is my recollection.

OK, I did find that the Studio 1a crosses over at 3KHz to the tweeter. I assume the Studio 1 had a similar crossover point.

http://www.vintage-audio.com.ua/en/cat/220/760.html

That is way too high. It might be OK for certain kinds of music (perhaps music without lots of transients), but a 'thickening' of vocals was what finally drove me away from this kind of design.
 
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Your post sours like something I'd read in a 1979 audio journal. I'm sorry but everything you've said falls apart in auditioning a variety of current speakers including the 12" woofer thing that is oft repeated in vintage leaning audio circles.

Who cares what an Ls-3/5a can do. It's not 1975.
 
Your post sours like something I'd read in a 1979 audio journal. I'm sorry but everything you've said falls apart in auditioning a variety of current speakers including the 12" woofer thing that is oft repeated in vintage leaning audio circles.

Who cares what an Ls-3/5a can do. It's not 1975.

Well I have owned a listened to a number of speakers and am familiar with the various design approaches.

The British speakers of the 70s and into the 80s were far ahead of American products, as anyone who owned them knows. The Japanese stuff initially was pretty bad, but Yamaha's designs were breakthroughs.

I mentioned the 12" woofer based on my own observations and listening; it has nothing to do with magazines.
 
I run Kef, Harbeth, Quad and Spendor. I do know what British speakers can do, though I don't intend to argue this any more. I will only say that what they could do in the '70s is not the same as what they can do today, and my observations are from a rabid obsession with auditioning gear. That's the hobby to me, this online thing is just passin' the time...

There are a number of excellent standmount two-ways today, with 6.5-8" woofers that deliver astoundingly good bass. Some older ('90s older) British speakers that are extremely coherent are Rega Elas. They use a transmission line. Very small floorstanding speaker but just musical as anything. AKer Robie has a pair and I think they're maybe the one speaker that I've ever run across that everybody agreed upon as sounding good.
 
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I run Kef, Harbeth, Quad and Spendor. I do know what British speakers can do, though I don't intend to argue this any more. I will only say that what they could do in the '70s is not the same as what they can do today, and my observations are from a rabid obsession with auditioning gear. That's the hobby to me, this online thing is just passin' the time...

There are a number of excellent standmount two-ways today, with 6.5-8" woofers that deliver astoundingly good bass. Some older ('90s older) British speakers that are extremely coherent are Rega Elas. They use a transmission line. Very small floorstanding speaker but just musical as anything. AKer Robie has a pair and I think they're maybe the one speaker that I've ever run across that everybody agreed upon as sounding good.

Unfortunately the laws of physics don't change over time and cannot be argued away. A small light diaphragm can start and stop faster than a big heavy one. That's really all there is to it, and that's why combining the midrange with a woofer will always result in compromising something, somewhere. A three-way, properly designed, will always sound better than a two-way, all things being equal. At one point I was curious about the Spendor speakers, and arranged to hear the SP1/2, which are very similar in design to the Rogers Studio 1s. I heard essentially the same sort of sound, and did not buy them.

The Spendor SP 1/2:
http://www.regonaudio.com/SpendorSP12Loudspeakers.html

The Rogers Studio 1:

http://domuya.music.coocan.jp/blog/images/20080719rogersstudio1a.jpg

The designs are almost identical.

There is no doubt that the SP 1/2 is an excellent speaker. But it cannot begin to compare with the NS-1000.
 
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