I guess that answers your question, Brett.
Why are us "cable believers" made to defend our position so often?
- Thread starter Brett a
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I guess that answers your question, Brett.
Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
Try that over on Audioholics and let me know how it works out.
Yeh.
Everybody's suffering.
:sigh:
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Don't forget, everything else on the Internet is 100 % accurate, so why should you be held to a different standard?
Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
I agree. That's why I just keep walkin' instead of imposing myself into threads where people are saying cables don't make a difference. So right back to the original question....
PickyEars81
Super Member
Perhaps. But (based on that logic/philosophy) when someone states that it's a fact that cables don't make a difference, you would have wont to document the contrary, for the sake of the community.
charles 1973
Super Member
The issue isn't are good cables important, of course they are. I doubt a single person on this forum including myself would argue that! The Debate has more to do with how much difference there is between 2 different High Quality cables, and your own definition of Good cables.
I've done some research on the subject and found that in fact the differences can be and are measured. Many cable's list the Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance on the data sheet. What impact these variables have on sound depends on the aplication.
I know my Nagoaka MP11 Cartridge for example has a smoother Freq. Responce with much more capacitance than I'm using. And that by twisting wires for speakers I can reduce Inductance, which in turn can create a better High Freq. responce. Bi-wiring Reduces the Inductance for the Mid and high Freq. too for the same effect. As for the Flux capacitor core in my Monster XP cables go, your guess is as good as mine.
The way I see it when company's build components and speakers, They are not voiced with special cables, otherwise the product would only perform with that cable. They will tell you if you need anything different. If the sound changes to you liking with exotic cables fine, but the product was not designed to sound like that.
Well that might be a bit overstated, but you get the idea.
I've done some research on the subject and found that in fact the differences can be and are measured. Many cable's list the Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance on the data sheet. What impact these variables have on sound depends on the aplication.
I know my Nagoaka MP11 Cartridge for example has a smoother Freq. Responce with much more capacitance than I'm using. And that by twisting wires for speakers I can reduce Inductance, which in turn can create a better High Freq. responce. Bi-wiring Reduces the Inductance for the Mid and high Freq. too for the same effect. As for the Flux capacitor core in my Monster XP cables go, your guess is as good as mine.
The way I see it when company's build components and speakers, They are not voiced with special cables, otherwise the product would only perform with that cable. They will tell you if you need anything different. If the sound changes to you liking with exotic cables fine, but the product was not designed to sound like that.
Well that might be a bit overstated, but you get the idea.
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Pretty much what they said above. It feels like this:
A: The world is flat!
B: Oh yeah? I heard that somewhere, good to know, thanks.
C: but.. no, hold on, it's really not
A: Well maybe that's your opinion, but I've been on this world my whole life and my experience is definitely that it's flat. To each their own I guess.
Some people feel they need to save others from their own stupidity (as it was put above), some find their scientific sensibilities insulted, some just can't resist an argument with a chance of a debunking involved...
Personally, after some getting used to participating in audio forums I learned how boring and futile it is to argue about the audibility of anything unless someone's doing an actual experiment. Once in a while, I still do it anyway. What can I say, I like to argue. For the record, I am not saying that buying any nice bit of cable and thinking it helps is akin to thinking the world is flat. Only in some cases, the ones that involve the tongue-biting.
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I'd say something but I get it. I've slighted vintage receivers and Klipsch Fortes enough to understand that when somebody else is doing something that you honestly, to the very core of your being, don't think is the right path- its hard to keep your mouth shut. And I could see somebody having that opinion of a person spending a lot on cables, even though I disagree with them to a certain extent.
usedto
Lunatic Member
I think if you go to the thread about the '67 Corvette in the "Wheels" forum, and read YOUR post, you may have your answer.:thmbsp:
Les Lammers
Well-Known Member
I don't know or care about the science but I know different 'brands' of cables do sound different. I buy used and sell what does not work for me. I don't spend big bux on wire. I do use wire to 'tune' the sound to my liking.
I used to use tone controls back in the day. I recently bought a Marantz 1060 to restore....just for fun. It is a nice amp but not worthy of a pedastal. The tone controls are quite coarse but decreasing treble hepls on some music. Yes, even though it is far from SOTA different IC's sound different. Currently, Luxman has tone controls on some of their products. If they allow a finer adjustment than the Marantz I think it would/could be a useful feature.
Perhaps deleting posts could be considered when a thread becomes a contest between 'believers' and 'non-believers'?
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stereofanboy
Addicted Member
Just participating in another derailed cable thread and after several years of it, I have to wonder why are those of us who take the "no tone controls/use only good cables" approach so predictably put on the defensive?
What is it about the people who disagree with this approach that makes them come into cable threads and challenge us? It's not like we haven't heard all the arguments before. And it's not like the "debate" has actually progressed over the years.
So why not leave the cable believers alone to discuss cables among themselves without coming to piss and challenge?
I would never go into an EQ thread and challenge the validity of someone's desire to have one. I don't butt into threads about vintage receivers to express my disapproval about all those button and switches. I just pass; let those folks have their fun. because that's what this is all about after all.
What is it about cable and tone control threads that's so irresistible to the intransigents?
I think it is just human nature. You may not go into an EQ thread, but there probably isn't an EQ thread here, where someone hasn't gone in and said that you don't need EQ if you have a good stereo, or something very close to that. For a sensitive person, that could be construed as a very cutting remark.
..........and yet named it "Thinking Out Loud" instead of "Cable Discussions". The forum name itself probably seduces many who haven't read the posting rules for this forum into assuming that it is a forum for sharing your thoughts in an open way rather than what it actually is.
For some, it is undoubtedly to show off their brilliance and to heap derision upon you. I'm sorry about them, but what can you do? Don't paint with a broad brush, we are all individuals and although we may tend to share like opinions with some, that won't always hold true. In a recent thread, I was shocked to find myself in total agreement with two guys with whom I am always at odds.....until then, that is.
Some of the folks visiting these threads have a real curiousity on the subject and keep coming back because they are hoping for something more concrete than what they read in the last thread. It is hard to get information on this subject at AK. Questions about cables in other forums are usually moved to "Thinking Out Loud" and that effectively stifles any dissenting opinions, and also many questions.
The rigor you apply to the process of coming to your opinion doesn't affect it's validity for you, after all, you were there and are familiar with the circumstances. Others' knowledge isn't as complete as yours and they may have legitimate questions.
Consider the audiophile who celebrated his new cable acquisition by dropping acid before listening to "Dark Side Of The Moon" and deciding that Cable B sounds way better than Cable A that he used last month when he only had pot.
In this rather extreme example, you can see how this matters to someone trying to gauge the reliabilty of that poster's subjective opinion. I'm not saying that you should feel compelled to satisfactorily answer every question that someone may wish to ask, but don't be surprised or offended if a refusal breeds skeptics. Of course, you can be offended if they express their skepticism in an offensive way, which some do.
I know that when you start a cable thread, it isn't intended to educate or even address me, but someday, someone may drop that nugget of information that makes the scales fall from my eyes, and I'll be glad I stuck around to see it.
Maybe we could have a new forum, dedicated to the spirit of the phrase "thinking out loud". Of course, that name is already taken. I know, we could call it "Cables And Esoteric Tweaks".
Absolutely, positively dead wrong.
whoaru99
Epic Member
I think that's false, and that you actually meant Audio Asylum; which I would agree in that case is true.
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Deal. :thmbsp:
cubby01
aka Buck
I didn't read ever post so pardon if it's the umpteenth time someone has said...
How in the world can you equate tone control preference discussions into esoteric cable bashing discussions? I seriously doubt there's anyone in this forum that doesn't perceive the difference when tone controls are changed. That's an **easily measurable** sound difference pure and simple. (likely even measurable between tone controls set to mid vs totally defeated.) The fact that one person prefers the the ability to alter the sound to fit the room or speaker regardless of the potential coloration or distortion is just a personal preference.
How in the world can you equate tone control preference discussions into esoteric cable bashing discussions? I seriously doubt there's anyone in this forum that doesn't perceive the difference when tone controls are changed. That's an **easily measurable** sound difference pure and simple. (likely even measurable between tone controls set to mid vs totally defeated.) The fact that one person prefers the the ability to alter the sound to fit the room or speaker regardless of the potential coloration or distortion is just a personal preference.
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reggaenaut
Addicted Member
Now I can have a sense of the displeasure of the OP.
I use to say to myself "Here comes John again".
slacquin
Member
I'm on the fence when it comes to cables i need conduction but can live with out blur. a wire that doesn't amplify distortion and choke the life out of the signal ( music) so I rely on the opinion of others for moderate price cables to use. along with one off self constructed wonders . and that makes me happy. Has anyone seen the unicorn I rode in on?
It might also help to clarify what is meant by high end cable. When I talk about high end cable I mean cable with identifiable technology such as twisting, braiding, flat conductors, shields, and well terminated connections. All of those alone or in combination can help to solve problems as practical and simple as running under carpet.
But even with those cases I would verify that the circuits at either end would benefit from the cable before making a recommendation if someone asked my opinion. A prime example is shields. They need to be terminated at only one end to be effective in noise rejection. The terminated end is usually at the source end. Even then the terminated end needs to have a low impedance to earth through the equipment so that the shield can dump charge without bouncing ground around and actually making noise.
Another example is twisted pairs which need to be on balanced circuits to achieve their noise cancelling properties. Then again their reactance might provide tonal benefits even on single ended systems. It all depends.
One thing that comes into play when evaluating shields and twisted pairs is the electromagnetic (EMC) environment that the stereo lives in. A person living in the country and using a land line phone might not need shielding or noise cancellation because his EMC noise floor is so quiet. On the other hand an apartment dweller might hear great benefit from shields and/or twisted pairs because they help quash EMC chirps from neighboring wireless access points, blenders, dimmers, etc. They might also benefit from a power conditioner. It all depends.
My belief spectrum ends at claimed benefits of oxygen free, Australian copper, aligned crystals, and the like. To me any benefits cited by manufacturers of that stuff are extraordinary marketing claims. If people claim to hear benefits from that stuff them more power to them. I won't challenge their claims if they won't call me deaf.
I also give weight to cable artistry. If a cable doesn't make a sonic difference I still think that nice cabling adds eye pizzaz. A little hubba-hubba never hurts.
But even with those cases I would verify that the circuits at either end would benefit from the cable before making a recommendation if someone asked my opinion. A prime example is shields. They need to be terminated at only one end to be effective in noise rejection. The terminated end is usually at the source end. Even then the terminated end needs to have a low impedance to earth through the equipment so that the shield can dump charge without bouncing ground around and actually making noise.
Another example is twisted pairs which need to be on balanced circuits to achieve their noise cancelling properties. Then again their reactance might provide tonal benefits even on single ended systems. It all depends.
One thing that comes into play when evaluating shields and twisted pairs is the electromagnetic (EMC) environment that the stereo lives in. A person living in the country and using a land line phone might not need shielding or noise cancellation because his EMC noise floor is so quiet. On the other hand an apartment dweller might hear great benefit from shields and/or twisted pairs because they help quash EMC chirps from neighboring wireless access points, blenders, dimmers, etc. They might also benefit from a power conditioner. It all depends.
My belief spectrum ends at claimed benefits of oxygen free, Australian copper, aligned crystals, and the like. To me any benefits cited by manufacturers of that stuff are extraordinary marketing claims. If people claim to hear benefits from that stuff them more power to them. I won't challenge their claims if they won't call me deaf.
I also give weight to cable artistry. If a cable doesn't make a sonic difference I still think that nice cabling adds eye pizzaz. A little hubba-hubba never hurts.
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