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Why is everyone so against electrolytic caps in crossovers?

Dr. Morbius said:
I bought a few from Erse recently and they were reasonably priced. They don't seem to have 4uF MPP caps though. Not seeing many MPP caps in 4uF and 12uF values.

12uF 250V Pulse-X at $4.57 each

4.uF 400V Solen Fast Cap at Madisound at $3.05 each

I usually stick with the less expensive MPP caps, such as Solen, Erse, Audyn Q4. For electrolytic I have been going with Mundorf and Erse.
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Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. So difference would be between 40 some odd cents each and 4 bucks and up. Basically an order of magnitude difference in price.

While most people could swing a couple bucks a cap for a set of speakers, one really can't argue that it's 'cost-effective' on that basis. I'd have to live to be 300 years old to have to replace my cheap electrolytic caps enough times to make buying the film caps financially advantageous.

That was my only point here. Cheap enough to afford to use? Perhaps for most of us. Financially advantageous? Not really.
 
Back to the future, it is all a chain of events

Going back to the original post, why use a "Better" cap when the original is fine...to experiment of course.

If you want a guarantee then seek professional help. I wish you luck finding the right professional too!

The only person you have to satisfy is yourself. Look at the costs and decide if its is worth the risks.

Everyone has an opinion; if you want mine read on...

The crossover is one of those areas of design that is often neglected, meaning, they (speaker designers) do the best they can with the budget and brains they have and then...it is often never investigated again. There is no cachet in touting a crossover as being superior, at least there is not as much market in touting crossovers as opposed to drivers (or at present, capacitors in any capacity :-). It is mostly about brand recognition, what sells! Poor little crossovers, they never get to be the star of the show. How many folks look inside the box of a speaker and say, "Oooo, nice crossovers!"

Crossovers are a link in the chain, ignore them at your own risk.

Just a recap may or may not yield improvements you can hear. Caps are not the only element in a crossover and a lot depends on whether you have other links in the chain that are choke points. Everything in the chain of events will only sound as good as the weakest link.

It is not particularly good news but it is the truth. You are going to have to be the judge of where your system's weak links are and take them to the level of everything else.

In the scheme of things, even at working man's pay, good quality caps are cheap, so, if you have the opportunity I'd replace any 20 year old cap in a system I'd like to listen to for years to come ;-) I like Nichicon KZ but it is a matter or tastes and application. Here again, the refrain is: experiment!


Cheers!
 
RickeyM said:
Worth it to those of us who want the better (relative to us) sound they provide? :yes:
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I wasn't arguing that. I was responding to a very specific statement, which was that since electrolytic caps have a finite lifespan, it is FINANCIALLY advantageous to go with film caps on that basis alone. As I've demonstrated, it's not.

I can't and won't argue that a film cap (or a poly, or anything you care to name) cannot improve the sound of one's speakers. I'm sure they can.

What I have argued is basic, and the logic, is, I think, impeccable.

Aside from the 'financial' point of view, I have argued that a given cap is not necessarily going to make a speaker sound better just because it is made of a different material or costs more. Different, yes. Better? That's subjective. If it sounds better to you, no problem at all. That doesn't make it objectively better to all people.

I have also argued that one cannot argue 'better sound' scientifically. One can measure all sorts of things scientifically, and those things may indeed result in better sound to the listener. But not one person on the planet can perform a scientific measurement of preference. Preference is no more and no less that what you and I happen to find most enjoyable. I like one thing, you like another. There is no equipment, no scale, and no scientist who can tell you what you like and do not like. So 'better-sounding' is absolutely, 100% subjective. Always was, always will be.

Finally, I have argued (or freely capitulated, if you prefer) that people like Bob Crites, who have been working with a given brand of speakers and crossovers for a very long time and are acknowledged experts in that field, have some very specific and worthwhile opinions on one brand of capacitor versus another. But, having said that, people take these experts' very valid opinions, and tend to run off the end of the damned earth with them. Bob Crites says he uses XYZ capacitors in his speaker crossovers. GREAT! I'm sure he has very good reasons for doing so. IN THOSE CROSSOVERS. You cannot logically extrapolate that his brand selection will have the same uplifting effect in every brand speaker, every crossover. It's just not a logical opinion to hold. But I hear it. Bob Crites says... yes, he does. And then the person repeating it clearly ignores what Bob Crites actually said and applied their own agenda to it to come up with something Bob Crites did NOT say.

There you have it. If you believe X capacitors sound better than Y, great. No problem at all. If you believe that is always the case for every speaker, every crossover, and every set of ears, then yeah, that's kind of wrong. Forgive me for continuing to point that out, but horrible logic gets up my sleeve a bit.
 
Has any AK thread/poster discussed the different capacitor internal constructions? This is likely more important than the choice of dielectric other than whether it is an electrolytic.

Commonly there are paper, film, and electrolytic choices for dielectric. Somewhere else on AK I've already discussed electolytic caps. Paper dielectric require oil to keep down corona. There are even paper, film, foil types and different types of oils. All of these have different electrical characteristics.

Film dielectric mostly comes in film (film-foil-film-foil) or metallized electrodes (metallized film-metallized film). Film dielectric is available in several varieties, such as teflon, polysytrene, polypropylene, polylethelyne terephthalate (of which Mylar is but one brand name), kapton, polysulfone and a slew of others - each having their strong and weak points. Further, there are several ways of connecting the electrodes to the leads which we can solder to, and those greatly affect ESR and inductance. Then there are many ways of winding and packaging the capacitors.

Each of these choices affect the electrical characteristics of capacitors. Further the dielectric characteristics of each are different functions of frequency, temperature, and to an extent impressed voltage. I would say that electronics designers generally do not know all these characteristics and how they effect capacitor performance. So when you talk about different brands of capacitors, that is a very superficial conversation indeed. It is on a par of discussing red vs. white wines, or even cars vs. trucks. It doesn't tell you very much at all.

Strange thing is that all of these characteristics can be MEASURED (that was my profession for a while). Another even stranger thing is that individual human perceived response in any kind of audio testing of circuitry using capacitors cannot be objectively measured, not even by brain waves. But subjective response can be.
 
Zonker92 said:
So Freds, what kind of caps would you recommend?
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For what particular application? Where can I get relevant info on capacitor construction? (For dielectrics only, I like polystyrene and teflon, but there are other considerations such as construction which they don't tell you about.)

Unless I can experiment for a particular crossover and have a good L-C-R measurement system, I would stick with the OEM design, and only replace what is defective. When I get my hands on a GR impedance bridge or equiv, then I will be a better source to ask this question of.

I hope to get a little money in hand for that so I can justify looking thru my 1980s GR catalogs to see what used units to bid on.
 
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matteos said:
Interesting read about electrolytic vs polypropylene

http://forums.audioholics.com/forum.../4948-capacitor-sound-blind-test-results.html

A blind test, the results were that no one could tell the difference. Unfortunately the links linked to it appear to be broken.
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That is very interesting. Wish I'd been there.

What is a poor test is to : get used to one design, then disassemble the speaker, solder in a few caps in each speaker, reassemble the units, adjust for driver balance, and then listen for differences. There are ALL SORTS of things (ambient conditions, a myriad distractions, certainly forgetting, expectations, hunger) that can happen in the interim in addition to other unmeasurable subjective responses. That is a very poor way to test anything, especially when subtle differences are expected. I'm speaking from some experience in experimental design, as an engineer.

At least alter only one unit and someone else (not you and WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE of which is where) place them both close together to test on only one amplifier channel, and then switch their positions and then retest. Reduce all the variables you can to only what you are testing for. Then come back and tell us what you found out.
 
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It takes BALLS to totally rip out your stock cross overs and upgrade to better stuff and trust me, you get what you pay for. My crossover work totally improved my speakers in every area of sound. (Read this link) http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=288022
I did this a few years ago and can tell you I'd never ever go back to the stock crossover. I didn't change the value of any components, I just changed out the quality of the components, I documented it all on my link above. Enough of us up in the mid west have done upgrades and none of us would be willing to go back to stock. Think what you want but staying stock is your loss.
 
This is what I wrote back in 2010 when I first heard my new crossover that I linked to in my post above. For those not willing to look at the link I'll quote here.

"Tonight I wired up one of the new cross overs. I took some junk speakers and wired them in to verify that it all worked. After a couple minutes of listening I was going to turn off the lights and watch the tube for a while. I then sail S@#%&^t and took it up to the living room. I have to say I looked at the stock speaker standing there in its glory and I had to think about cutting wires off the old cross over, it was something that once cut would take a lot of work to go back to factory condition. I grabbed the wire cutter and went to work. I set the new cross over on a small box and hooked it up to the left speaker, held my breath and turned on the 300B amps. I started off with a couple of good sounding CDs. John Denver's "Whispering Jessie" has a very nice sound stage. HOLY CRAP!!! The violins filled the left side of the room almost sounding like some of them were slightly behind me!! GEEZE!!! I put on "Hell Freezes Over" by the Eagles. The sound on the left sounds so well defined and balanced compared to the sound on the right. I'll be getting up early tomorrow to solder up the second cross over. It will be very easy to cut the wires and hook it up. Then comes the carpentry to finish the cases for them. I'll post pictures later. The guys that spend their time rolling tubes should put them away and try this, the reward is much higher. I'm not saying I'm done yet, I'll know that in a week or two but for now I can hardly wait to finish the other cross over."
 
Some speaker crossover caps sizes can't be replaced with polycaps because of there
size being to big so a good electrolytic has to be used, otherwise the rest I would
recap with the better film cap.

Tube
 
tube-a-lou said:
Some speaker crossover caps sizes can't be replaced with polycaps because of there
size being to big so a good electrolytic has to be used, otherwise the rest I would
recap with the better film cap.

Tube
Click to expand...

Build an exterior box for the crossover and air core inductors if size is an issue.
 
jdg123 said:
Going back to the original post, why use a "Better" cap when the original is fine...to experiment of course.

If you want a guarantee then seek professional help. I wish you luck finding the right professional too!

The only person you have to satisfy is yourself. Look at the costs and decide if its is worth the risks.

Everyone has an opinion; if you want mine read on...

The crossover is one of those areas of design that is often neglected, meaning, they (speaker designers) do the best they can with the budget and brains they have and then...it is often never investigated again. There is no cachet in touting a crossover as being superior, at least there is not as much market in touting crossovers as opposed to drivers (or at present, capacitors in any capacity :-). It is mostly about brand recognition, what sells! Poor little crossovers, they never get to be the star of the show. How many folks look inside the box of a speaker and say, "Oooo, nice crossovers!"

Crossovers are a link in the chain, ignore them at your own risk.

Just a recap may or may not yield improvements you can hear. Caps are not the only element in a crossover and a lot depends on whether you have other links in the chain that are choke points. Everything in the chain of events will only sound as good as the weakest link.

It is not particularly good news but it is the truth. You are going to have to be the judge of where your system's weak links are and take them to the level of everything else.

In the scheme of things, even at working man's pay, good quality caps are cheap, so, if you have the opportunity I'd replace any 20 year old cap in a system I'd like to listen to for years to come ;-) I like Nichicon KZ but it is a matter or tastes and application. Here again, the refrain is: experiment!


Cheers!
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more, This is so true!

The crossover is one of those areas of design that is often neglected, meaning, they (speaker designers) do the best they can with the budget and brains they have and then...it is often never investigated again. There is no cachet in touting a crossover as being superior, at least there is not as much market in touting crossovers as opposed to drivers (or at present, capacitors in any capacity :-). It is mostly about brand recognition, what sells! Poor little crossovers, they never get to be the star of the show. How many folks look inside the box of a speaker and say, "Oooo, nice crossovers!"


Frank Sol said:
You dont count... :D You're one of those Klipsch-Heads :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

Guess I have become one to Frank!

Dave C said:
It takes BALLS to totally rip out your stock cross overs and upgrade to better stuff and trust me, you get what you pay for. My crossover work totally improved my speakers in every area of sound. (Read this link) http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=288022
I did this a few years ago and can tell you I'd never ever go back to the stock crossover. I didn't change the value of any components, I just changed out the quality of the components, I documented it all on my link above. Enough of us up in the mid west have done upgrades and none of us would be willing to go back to stock. Think what you want but staying stock is your loss.
Click to expand...

I heard them, I'd have to say they are phenomenal for a $600 speaker with $600 more stuck in parts they sound more like a 3-$5000 pair of speakers. I was shocked!

Dave C said:
Build an exterior box for the crossover and air core inductors if size is an issue.
Click to expand...

Worked like a charm!

lkfh.jpg
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Another little secret

It doesn't cost $50 - $100 to produce a big poly capacitor. Maybe it costs a couple of bucks. There is a huge markup and a lot of hype. I've seen many caps made from big paper-film-oil ones to tiny film ones. I've seen the machines they are wound on (sort of like tape recorder spool motors and controls) , and I know the skill level required for that and for the engineering. I can even do that myself. What I don't know is the fancy packaging and promo costs, and the profit levels.

Just be aware of marketing-manipulated supply-demand costing.
 
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