Why is everyone so against electrolytic caps in crossovers?

[Dave C]

It doesn't cost $50 - $100 to produce a big poly capacitor. Maybe it costs a couple of bucks.

Depends on what you're making it from doesn't it? A silver foil or gold foil cap would be way more expensive than a aluminum foil cap. Many high end audio caps are also bipolar so that also effects the price. Not all caps are wound either, the really high end stuff tends to be stacked. Technicalities on this stuff can go through the roof once you get into the details and study it.
I've got a good friend that is a broadcast engineer, he figures the cheapest stuff at radioshack of a certain value will match anything high end of the same value and yet he marvels at how my system sounds all stacked up with the boutique stuff. At this point I'd add that if you've never heard the good stuff you have no grounds for comparison.
To me it's kind of like giving a #2 lead pencil to an artist and expecting to get something really nice when the next artist is equipped with a compliment of fine drawing tools. You get out what you put in.

 

[Freds.Bands]

Most expensive dielectric is Teflon; metallized film will have more resistance than foil (typically 0.44 mils thickness); if you have enough foil taps to the electrodes in the right position, there is no significant advantage to silver gold or whatever foils, plus the multiple taps keep the inductance and resistance down. Then you don't need a stacked configuration which can't be as reliable as wound anyway.

People talk about the "sound" of capacitors, as if the amp or crossover used almost nothing else. Fact is that it is the entire design that imparts a particular sound to the device, not just a single component. Sometimes I think that if a component used "ideal" capacitors that only cost a couple of bucks with a plain label, people would find something wrong with the "sound" of them.

You'd (or I'd anyway) think that if we are going to hear a capacitor "sound", it would be in the crossover where the audio paths are much more straightforward. Then I hear about the DIY Audio conference tests, mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[SET12]

the really high end stuff tends to be stacked. Technicalities on this stuff can go through the roof once you get into the details and study it.

I've got a good friend that is a broadcast engineer, he figures the cheapest stuff at Radio Shack of a certain value will match anything high end of the same value and yet he marvels at how my system sounds all stacked up with the boutique stuff.

At this point I'd add that if you've never heard the good stuff you have no grounds for comparison.

To me it's kind of like giving a #2 lead pencil to an artist and expecting to get something really nice when the next artist is equipped with a compliment of fine drawing tools. You get out what you put in.

:thmbsp: Really good points!

I use Duelund VSF stacked copper foil for mids where the heart and soul of music is granted they are expensive but worth every penny subjectively.

Even better are the Cast series which are twice the price these are designed to kill mechanical resonance.

But one can keep the caps outside of the cabinet and avoid the the interior acoustic energy effecting the cap's Microphonic nature.

Its a great reason sometimes one see's a high end speaker with outboard networks. Acoustic energy can effect every part of a crossover especially inductors. Self Resonance is another issue to deal with and some brands of caps and even inductors are better than others dealing with this issue.

SET12

 

[SET12]

From this site I like to use to start my search for voicing a cap to my system it gives me ideas for voicing my system.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

I like what he does for his ratings overall regardless of whether I think the cap is worth my attention or not.

Here is what he has to say.

The subjective results of this test are meant to give you a basic idea of the sonic differences between capacitors when used in loudspeaker filters. I test all the capacitors in the signal path of tweeter and midrange circuits in loudspeaker crossovers and try them out in both series- and parallel crossovers. The capacitors are tested in different loudspeakers, varying from the ones I happen to be building at the time to the many demo speakers I have. I also use solid-state and tube amplification, analogue and digital source equipment and several different interlinks and speaker-cables during the process of evaluation that takes several months of extensive listening. Testing is done by listening to various good quality recordings on CD and vinyl and everyday high Kbs streaming internet radio. The evaluation consists of listening with just one pair of capacitors (so no switching) over a longer period of time. This is then repeated with a different capacitor. This way I get a good idea of what each capacitor does and doesn't do. Finally I do direct comparsions with previously tested types to determine the rating. Over time I may re-evaluate my previous conclusions as new capacitors enter the contest. I give each participant a rating. This scale is based purely on sound quality; price has been left out of consideration. A higher rating does not automatically mean that one capacitor is better than another. A hi-Fi system is a very complex sum of many variables, a capacitor is only one part of that total, so depending on implementation things may vary a little. On the other hand you can be assured that capacitor A with a 6 point rating won't "beat" capacitor B with a 10 point rating.

Further

Why do capacitors sound different?

In the past capacitors were just capacitors and sound quality was determined by the dialectric material with polypropylene considered by many as "the best" seeing as this type of capacitor had the lowest losses. But technology of the 21st century has brought us new measuring techniques and insights and there seems to be more to it. We can now measure things that were not possible a few years ago. In a nut-shell: microphony is the keyword - the mechanical resonance, a key feature of audio capacitors. This is a physical deformation of the capacitor walls which occurs as a result of the audio signal passing through the component – much like an electrostatic speaker. This resonance is dependent on the size, shape, materials and manufacturing parameters of the capacitors. This effect has been known about for years as it plays a part in the impulse strength of capacitors. However, the effect has never been considered to be significant enough to affect a hi-fi system’s audio reproduction due to the low energy involved. For more indepth information read the white paper on mechanical resonances inside capacitors. Another interesting article was written by Martin Colloms back in 1985 in which he tested several capacitors on their sonic differences. Also look at the equivalent circuit diagram of a capacitor, this also explains a lot. A capacitor is more than just capacitance C!

SET12

 

[Freds.Bands]

I've already given my thoughts in a minimal set of requirements for A-B testing protocol of any speaker mod. This article does not give enough details on test protocols.

Capacitor microphonics? How about inductor microphonics? They aren't all potted with epoxy.

 

[Frank Sol]

Extra large shiny Black Caps with script Gold Lettering sound best

 

[glen65]

OK, let's talk about prices, then. I have been buying mine at Parts Express. Recent purchase:


4.0uF 100V Non-Polarized Capacitor Part Number: 027-330 4 @ $0.44 = $1.76

12uF 100V Non-Polarized Capacitor Part Number: 027-342 4@ $0.65 = $2.60

So what are we talking about with regard to 'quality film caps'?

It doesn't really matter at this point. Since I wasn't really trying to get you
to buy them, and you believe them to be a waste of money (at least for you)
bringing up prices would be pointless. You probably already looked up the prices before you posted anyway, and others can do the same.

Eh, again, I can't agree. It 'makes sense' if two things are true.

1) They last longer than electrolytic AND I am going to live long enough to have to replace electrolytic capacitors a second time.

2) They don't change the sound. Presuming they *do* change the sound, then we're into that whole 'will the new sound be better or worse' thing.



Sure I would. I see respected people doing all kinds of things that don't make sense for me, and which may not be necessary. I know many good and highly qualified techs will put any kind of fancy caps a person wants into a receiver or amp if that's what the customer wants.

In any case, I have not argued that there are no advantages to them. I refuted your point that it made economic sense to replace electrolytic caps in speaker crossovers with other types,[/B] since the other types last longer. They do last longer; but I won't live long enough to need to replace electrolytic caps a second time, so that's just not a good argument.

No, What you said is based mostly on your opinion and particular situation.
You say they make no sense (at least for you) because you might not live to see them wear out. That completely misses the point
of the thread. The op doesn't revolve around you or me. Its asking a more general question.
Its asking why people are against electrolytic capacitors in speaker crossovers, not if they are more economical.

 

[SET12]

I've already given my thoughts in a minimal set of requirements for A-B testing protocol of any speaker mod. This article does not give enough details on test protocols.

Capacitor microphonics? How about inductor microphonics? They aren't all potted with epoxy.

Protocols, I guess you have to call as you need it. I for one appreciate his long term subjective evaluations. He uses a variety of equipment as well.

Yes I have done A-B-A listening evaluations myself with speakers and such.

Funny how far I got just subjectively because when I got around to the A-B-A evaluation with my current speaker networks friends agreed it wasn't even close.

Inductor Microphonics,

Oh that's a very good one! I like that topic! Your right not all inductors are treated the same some are only varnished on the outside allowing the interior to be effected.

From North Creek's Inductor FAQ's http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html

Mechanical stability: North Creek inductors are varnish sealed in a vacuum chamber, which bonds each winding to the six surrounding it throughout the entire body of the coil. Most copper wire inductors are varnish dipped, which seals the outer wraps but not the coil body. Copper foil inductors are usually heat sealed, which seals the edges but not the body. Typical copper wire and copper foil inductors will have a number of mechanical resonances that are activated by current flowing through the inductor, and can be heard to "sing along" with the input signal. Because of their unique vacuum impregnation, North Creek inductors do not show any signs of mechanical resonance.



One of my biggest reasons I like North Creek Inductors is this point!

First and foremost, our wire wound inductors are made on a custom built, tension-free winding machine. This winding method minimizes the stretch and mechanical deformation of the copper, so there is no strain on the copper and its conductivity remains at a maximum. All copper foil inductors (and most copper wire inductors) are wound at very high tensions, so both the copper and the insulating film are stretched and remain under tension for the life of the product. Tension is differential stretch, which creates microfractures in both the copper and insulating material. This is about the worst thing one can do to a conductor.

I like this guys experience with the sound of inductors! I had a similar experience http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/14/147282.html

The only other manufacture of inductors that uses vacuum varnish impregnation that I know is Mundorf but only as a request and of course extra cost. I have heard their inductors and like the product I heard them in very much.

SET12

 

[SET12]

Extra large shiny Black Caps with script Gold Lettering sound best

That's funny Frank :lmao:

 

[Dr. Morbius]

Just for the record, I am not against electrolytic capacitors. I've used them in the projects I've done and plan to do and will continue to use them for larger values.

But for smaller values I'll use MPP as it's really not more expensive than going to a pub for a few beers. I'll just drink beer at home and hope I remember to turn the soldering iron off after working on a crossover.

 

[Dave C]

Extra large shiny Black Caps with script Gold Lettering sound best

:yes::yes::yes::yes:

 

[Dave C]

i'll just drink beer at home and hope i remember to turn the soldering iron off after working on a crossover. :d

yup!!

 

[Freds.Bands]

I like North Creek's approach to inductor winding. Going to read about their capacitor construction techniques. Setting up the winders is a bit tricky but once done for a certain thickness of film/foil and number of turns, it is pretty stable.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

Extra large shiny Black Caps with script Gold Lettering sound best

Nice... Actually, I heard it was NOS "boutique" caps from a forgotten time long ago (with a rough, unfinished metal exterior, proof of their handcraftedness).

 

[SET12]

I like North Creek's approach to inductor winding.

1.0mH Music Coils in 14 AWG, 12 AWG, 10 AWG, and 8AWG

You can imagine the size of my 3mH Inductors.

Now imagine ones amplifier trying to control woofers through this Iron Core 22AWG 3mH's 40ft of wire tied on to my front door! And yet people think there is a real benefit to using 12,14 or 16 AWG speaker hook up wire for their amplifiers.

Its very easy to hear the effect!

Once more take an ERSA Iron Core and even using say a 10 AWG Solen Air Core and you'll wonder whats going on with the bass with the ERSA yet both have the same DCR!

 

[Gibsonian]

1.0mH Music Coils in 14 AWG, 12 AWG, 10 AWG, and 8AWG

You can imagine the size of my 3mH Inductors.

Now imagine ones amplifier trying to control woofers through this Iron Core 22AWG 3mH's 40ft of wire tied on to my front door! And yet people think there is a real benefit to using 12,14 or 16 AWG speaker hook up wire for their amplifiers.

Its very easy to hear the effect!

Once more take an ERSA Iron Core and even using say a 10 AWG Solen Air Core and you'll wonder whats going on with the bass with the ERSA yet both have the same DCR!

Nice visual on the wire length. You are sure right about the woofer control through all that resistance of tiny wire. Now if you're like me though and have zero inductors and anything else in the path, then the speaker wire of choice can make a difference...

 

[SET12]

Nice visual on the wire length. You are sure right about the woofer control through all that resistance of tiny wire. Now if you're like me though and have zero inductors and anything else in the path, then the speaker wire of choice can make a difference...

:yes: Wish I could live with that notion but I doubt it.

 

[datafone]

No, here is why.

"Improve" is a subjective term.

If I 'improve' a tire design, in what way is it improved? Is it longer-wearing? That's an improvement. Perhaps it has less rolling resistance, so the driver might get better gas mileage. Maybe it has better grip for higher performance driving. Or it might be quieter, or ride better. All of these are 'improvements', but what does 'improved' mean if you do not qualify the term by describing WHAT the improvement is? Nothing.

So you have two capacitors. Brand A and Brand B. Both are the same value, and rating. One is very expensive, the other is very inexpensive. One is commonly accepted as being an improved part.

Improved, HOW? Does it last longer? Does it have a lower ESR? Does it look better? Is it constructed so that it can withstand more extreme temperatures or installation in otherwise damaging environments? Is it constructed with 'green' processes, to avoid polluting the earth? All of those are improvements; but in what way do they 'improve' the sound when installed a speaker crossover?

I'm not saying that an 'improved' capacitor will not make the sound better; it very well might. I am saying it's a valueless word when used without context.

If you contend that a higher-end or boutique capacitor improves the sound, that's specific. But if you are going to make that claim, you have to prove it. Simply pointing out that something is improved doesn't mean it is going to be more fit for any particular purpose.

In summary, we don't want to confuse 'improvement' with 'and therefore sounds better'. There are many ways Brand A may be improved over Brand B that have no affect on sound at all, or alternatively, they may change the sound; that doesn't necessarily mean 'better' either.

Tyers?

I can't really see that as comparable at all, they all sound the same to me

What context do you want? I thought sound was the perfect context, as this is about sound reproduction.

Caps have different sound signatures, some are similar to others, some are very different in sound, this is all the same values.

Improvements that I'm talking about ... better sound, I care about the sound, otherwise I would be listening to an ipod.

Many people have a negative view of high end/high priced caps like Duelund VSF's, but every one of those people I have seen have never even used them, so the credibility of what they say is very suspect in my view.

Those that have experience with them....I talking about people that listen or measure AND listen, never deny the improvements, and happily use them when they can.

Yes, like many thing, the further up you go, the aspect of diminishing returns come into play, and part of that is because there is either no competition at this level, or, very little competition.

If the FT3 Teflons were current production, they would not cost a few buck each, they would be between $40 and $60 IMO.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Improvements that I'm talking about ... better sound, I care about the sound, otherwise I would be listening to an ipod.

Most people do. The point I am making is this; the word 'improved' or 'better' has many meanings. If you are speaking about better sound, and you claim that more expensive caps 'sound better', then the onus is on you to prove that.

You cannot prove that, no one can. Not because they might not sound better to you or someone else, but because you cannot measure enjoyment objectively. If one person says they do not think your chosen caps sound 'better' then what? Are they lying? Are they misguided? Do they have defective ears or speakers? Or is it simply a case that 'better' sound is in the ears of the person listening, and no one can tell what another person is experiencing? You can measure sound waves. You cannot measure how they make an individual person feel. Make sense?

Many people have a negative view of high end/high priced caps like Duelund VSF's, but every one of those people I have seen have never even used them, so the credibility of what they say is very suspect in my view.

And that's fine, but 'your view' is subjective, just like mine. Not science, not objective, so we cannot make claims that it is.

Those that have experience with them....I talking about people that listen or measure AND listen, never deny the improvements, and happily use them when they can.

Untrue. We have had several threads on AK (and a few have mentioned it in this thread) about people who have tried the high-end caps and gone back to the original design because they did NOT like the way they sounded.

But that goes back to the same old undefeatable argument. If a person listens to them and says they did not like them, then they are lying. Or they have bad ears. Or they have bad speakers, or bad equipment or a poor listening environment, or they didn't give them a fair shake, or they were prejudiced against them, etc, etc. In other words, your conviction is based in emotion, and no actual experiences that would appear to go against your conviction would ever be allowed to stand. You'd always have yet another objection.

Yes, like many thing, the further up you go, the aspect of diminishing returns come into play, and part of that is because there is either no competition at this level, or, very little competition.

That means nothing in terms of demonstrating that higher-priced caps sound better than lower priced caps. I contend that they sound different. 'Better' is a subjective term and is up to the individual listener and their individual tastes. Without controlled testing and experimentation, a conjecture that XYZ cap will sound 'better' in ABC speaker is an untrue statement. It 'might' sound better. And it might not. Those are the only true statements you can make about it.

 

[datafone]

I don't like all high priced caps!

I have a preference of Obbligato Gold caps over Mundorf Silver and Oils, now which is the more expensive cap.....hmm?

Price doesn't even come into it, I care about the sound, If I could find a $4 cap the does what a VSF does, I would use it!

Yes some design choices can actually mask faults, as can some caps, change the caps and hang on.......now we are hearing those drivers and the cab design warts and all. Many commercial speakers have very little thought put into driver choices and over all design, a lot of crossovers are very poorly designed. Just because a speaker hits the market, don't assume that this is a well designed speaker, or that they have not made many compromises to maximises the bottom line. And not all designer are even very good at what they do.

I wish it were as basic and as straight forward as you make out.

Ah, there is no onus on me, I'm not sitting a test, or part of some experiment...I'm relating/sharing my experiences, others like you can do as they please regardless.