• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Why is everyone so against electrolytic caps in crossovers?

It may also not be economically feasible for a company to use more expensive/better caps in a production environment when building speakers by the thousands.

89grand, you need to watch this ...

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/19914615/highlight/234880

I've seen that video, but I like the sound of my TW's, so I guess I like them as designed, so I think I have a better chance at fail by trying to improve them than I do at keeping them as close to how they were as possible.

I recapped a set of KLH 23's, that are loved here, but to me not that great, and they sounded worse to me after replacing the lytic caps with PE poly caps.

The worst I could do by replacing the caps with similar ones in my TW3's is sound nearly the same as new...or I could have possibly re-voiced them with other caps, and wished I hadn't.
 
It may also not be economically feasible for a company to use more expensive/better caps in a production environment when building speakers by the thousands.

The point isn't that the manufacturer didn't or couldn't afford better parts. The point is that they may have (and in my opinion, probably did) spec the design for the parts they used, not the parts they wished they could have used. When designed for those parts, and not other parts, it is logical to assume that the sound they DESIGNED would not be improved by changing the spec, even for what some might think would be better quality parts.

Example would be this. Car designed to run well on a lower-octane gasoline. Could it run on higher octane gasoline? Sure. But not as it was designed. You put higher octane gas in without changing anything else and it either runs the same (but the gas costs more) or it actually runs worse, because it wasn't designed for the better-quality gasoline.

I am more than willing to believe that speaker designers know what they are designing with and for. So if they build a crossover with certain parts, they design for those parts, not for parts that don't exist yet (at the time they were building them) or are too expensive. They designed them, tested them, adjusted them, with the parts they put in them, not other parts.

So replacing like with like? Makes sense if you want the speakers to sound the way they did when they were new.

It's kind of funny in a way. People get their knickers in knots over the concept of using tone controls, because "it's not the way the music was intended to be heard." Then they tweak the crap out of their speaker crossovers so that they do NOT sound the "way they were intended to be heard" and consider that a good thing.

It is to laugh. And I do. Hard.
 
When I contacted Pinnacle about replacing electrolytic capacitors with mylar/poly, I was told not to do so as mylar/poly need some resistor padding or something. :scratch2:
But electrolytics of same value would be no problemo.

Below is the reply from Pinnacle speakers:
I know there is a desire to want to swap out EL caps for Mylars but I'll tell you that you will have to pad things a bit more if you do that because choosing EL caps with appropriate DF can keep from adding series resistors to pad.

What do you guys think about it?
 
When I contacted Pinnacle about replacing electrolytic capacitors with mylar/poly, I was told not to do so as mylar/poly need some resistor padding or something. :scratch2:
But electrolytics of same value would be no problemo.

Below is the reply from Pinnacle speakers:


What do you guys think about it?

I think the boutique caps believers won't believe Pinnacle. They won't believe anything that doesn't support the idea of spending piles of money on large caps that have bright colors and famous names on them. Just a guess.
 
When I contacted Pinnacle about replacing electrolytic capacitors with mylar/poly, I was told not to do so as mylar/poly need some resistor padding or something. :scratch2:
But electrolytics of same value would be no problemo.

Below is the reply from Pinnacle speakers:


What do you guys think about it?


They are referring to the difference in ESR, as mentioned in this thread, and that difference would require the added resistance.

I think you should do as Pinnacle suggests.
 
When I contacted Pinnacle about replacing electrolytic capacitors with mylar/poly, I was told not to do so as mylar/poly need some resistor padding or something. :scratch2:
But electrolytics of same value would be no problemo.

Below is the reply from Pinnacle speakers:


What do you guys think about it?

I think i screwed up putting in poly's in place of my npe's! Thats what i think. Now I'm going to have to spend more money and time to recap a extra set of crossovers with npe's and swap out the polys to find out for sure .
 
I think i screwed up putting in poly's in place of my npe's! Thats what i think. Now I'm going to have to spend more money and time to recap a extra set of crossovers with npe's and swap out the polys to find out for sure .

Well, I don't know whether you did or not. I make my own choices based off logic, and the fact I've been messing with audio equipment since I was about 15, now 45, but learning, possibly making mistakes is half the fun. Don't sweat it, and buy some cheap caps if necessary to get your speakers back to how they were.

I wouldn't know **** about audio had I not made my own mistakes.:yes:
 
It may also not be economically feasible for a company to use more expensive/better caps in a production environment when building speakers by the thousands.

89grand, you need to watch this ...

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/19914615/highlight/234880

I would have to agree. Economics has everything to do with it. Businesses are always keeping their eyes on the bottom line. If you get carried away with costs your doors will soon shut. I don't think most big speaker companies would survive very long using premium grade capacitors. Even the price jump from a 50 cent electrolytic to $3.00 film cap would put a huge dent in the bottom line if your selling 100K+ numbers of units.
 
The point isn't that the manufacturer didn't or couldn't afford better parts. The point is that they may have (and in my opinion, probably did) spec the design for the parts they used, not the parts they wished they could have used. When designed for those parts, and not other parts, it is logical to assume that the sound they DESIGNED would not be improved by changing the spec, even for what some might think would be better quality parts.

I am more than willing to believe that speaker designers know what they are designing with and for. So if they build a crossover with certain parts, they design for those parts, not for parts that don't exist yet (at the time they were building them) or are too expensive. They designed them, tested them, adjusted them, with the parts they put in them, not other parts.
That's what Ken Kantor told me in an NHT crossover thread I had started. I had replaced all of the original crossovers in one of two Super Two speakers. The results were noticeable in the one that had the caps replaced.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=522926&page=4

So replacing like with like? Makes sense if you want the speakers to sound the way they did when they were new.
Yet in the video I linked, Steve Eberbach says differently and has suggested differently through associates of his on a different forum. However, in no way does he suggest high dollar electronics. The only two brands I've heard about his recommending by name are Erse and Panasonic. Neither fall into the boutique dollar classification.

Also, Bob Crites uses Sonicaps in his Klipsch crossovers. A number of people seem to like his products.

Who's right and who's wrong?

It's kind of funny in a way. People get their knickers in knots over the concept of using tone controls, because "it's not the way the music was intended to be heard." Then they tweak the crap out of their speaker crossovers so that they do NOT sound the "way they were intended to be heard" and consider that a good thing.

It is to laugh. And I do. Hard.
The tone control nazis crack me up too. They'd rather die before moving the dials away from flat response, yet some will have no trouble spending big money on boutique speaker cables to tweak their system. Same is true with caps.
 
Last edited:
I would have to agree. Economics has everything to do with it. Businesses are always keeping their eyes on the bottom line. If you get carried away with costs your doors will soon shut. I don't think most big speaker companies would survive very long using premium grade capacitors. Even the price jump from a 50 cent electrolytic to $3.00 film cap would put a huge dent in the bottom line if your selling 100K+ numbers of units.

But that doesn't mean the speaker would be better had they used the more expensive parts. It's just a guess on yours and others part.:yes:

Using more expensive/supposed better parts does not guarantee a better sounding speaker. This thread was intended to provoke thought, not just assumption.:thmbsp:
 
Speaker makers use electroylitic caps because they're small and cheap. For most consumers, the sound is "good enough". With the economics of making and selling speakers, if you can make a product that is well accepted while saving some production costs, that's what you do. When manufacturers want to go to a higher level of reproduction in their speakers they use better quality components such as poly caps. To some people it's worth the extra money to buy better sounding speakers. To some it's worth the extra bucks to buy better caps to upgrade the speakers they have.

Recently I upgraded some speakers I have with poly caps in place of the stock electroylitic's. The speakers are Boston HD7's. Most everything I read about them on the 'net was they are well made, good sounding speakers as they come. With a side by side comparison between one modded speaker and the other unchanged, the treble was clearer, more detailed and more lively sounding on the speaker with the poly caps. I don't know about what factors of the new caps make my speakers sound much better and I don't care. For about $10 in caps, I'm happy with the results.
 
The people that believe they can design a product better than the designers, price point or not, should tear apart everything they own and improve it. No reason to stop just at speakers.

Why not replace the power cord on your microwave with 0 gauge wire, or change all the electrical components in your TV, or yank the wiring out of your brand new car and re-wire it with a heavier gauge? Why is it only audio equipment that needs the consumer to improve it? It should be everything built to a price point, which would be everything made.
 
Speaker makers use electroylitic caps because they're small and cheap. For most consumers, the sound is "good enough". With the economics of making and selling speakers, if you can make a product that is well accepted while saving some production costs, that's what you do. When manufacturers want to go to a higher level of reproduction in their speakers they use better quality components such as poly caps. To some people it's worth the extra money to buy better sounding speakers. To some it's worth the extra bucks to buy better caps to upgrade the speakers they have.

Recently I upgraded some speakers I have with poly caps in place of the stock electroylitic's. The speakers are Boston HD7's. Most everything I read about them on the 'net was they are well made, good sounding speakers as they come. With a side by side comparison between one modded speaker and the other unchanged, the treble was clearer, more detailed and more lively sounding on the speaker with the poly caps. I don't know about what factors of the new caps make my speakers sound much better and I don't care. For about $10 in caps, I'm happy with the results.
How old are your Boston's? Were the electrolytic caps you replaced with polys original to the speakers when they were new?
 
Just to stir the pot, here's what B&W says about 'lytic caps (and iron-core inductors):

http://hifi.goneill.co.nz/bwfaqn.php

We usually find that customers who alter crossover components are not fully satisfied with the results. They find that some aspects are improved, but others made worse. A classic case of this is when a polypropylene or other very low-loss type substitutes an electrolytic capacitor. We all know that polypropylene capacitors can sound inherently better, but the change in internal losses changes the response of the filter, which is designed assuming the losses of the electrolytic component.

What usually happens when the low loss component is fitted is that the corners of the roll-off are sharpened, giving a peak in the combined response that can make the sound unpleasant in various ways depending on the crossover frequency. One way of getting round this is to wire a small resistor in series with the capacitor to approximate the original losses. I say approximate because the loss factor is a frequency dependent resistance. The actual value you need depends on the original capacitor loss factor and its capacitance value. The larger the value, the lower the resistance for a given loss factor.

The formula for the equivalent resistance is:
R = d / (2π fC)
where R = resistance in ohms, d = loss factor, f = frequency in Hz and C = capacitance in farads.

Loss factor is usually expressed as a percentage at 1kHz. For a "low-loss" electrolytic such as the values between 1μF and 20μF found in tweeter circuits, d is of the order of 0.025 (loss factor of 2.5%). For values in the hundreds of microfarads it may be of the order of 0.07 or 7%. Typically therefore a good electrolytic capacitor of 5μF would have an equivalent series resistance of 0.8Ω. If the capacitor has a much larger resistor in series with it anyway, it's probably not worth altering.

The same argument applies if you substitute a cored inductor with an air core type. Always try to duplicate the DC resistance as well as the inductance. Sometimes inductors are deliberately wound with relatively fine wire to give a certain resistance to add damping to the circuit. Iron dust cores (sometimes called P-cores) have higher losses at higher frequencies than at lower, due to eddy current effects. Substitution of an air core, even of the same DC resistance, may give a steeper ultimate slope in the stop band that can alter the phase relationship between the two drivers. That can also mess up the overall response and skew the optimum listening angle a little.

...

As you can see, it's a potential minefield and difficult to get the optimum result without proper measuring facilities. Adjustment just by ear tends to give good results on limited programme material and you can usually come across some other piece that sounds less than acceptable.
 
Last edited:
With that said, though, I'm still considering replacing the Mylar caps on my 4430s with good quality MPPs. :D The ESR shouldn't change significantly and I'd use separate boards for easy plug and play swappage.
 
Last edited:
The people that believe they can design a product better than the designers, price point or not, should tear apart everything they own and improve it. No reason to stop just at speakers.

Why not replace the power cord on your microwave with 0 gauge wire, or change all the electrical components in your TV, or yank the wiring out of your brand new car and re-wire it with a heavier gauge? Why is it only audio equipment that needs the consumer to improve it? It should be everything built to a price point, which would be everything made.
Oh, it's not just audio equipment. Check out a guitar forum. However, in the case of guitars one certainly can make a guitar sound better by swapping out the electronics. Most stock pickups in guitars costing under $1,500 are pretty ordinary. Just swapping the stockers out with a set of inexpensive Seymour Duncans can have a profound effect on one's tone.

I've modded a number of guitars' electronics (mostly Strats but a Jazzmaster too) and I can assure you they sound much more pleasing to my ear. In the cases where they didn't sound up to snuff I sold the pickups and started over. I've also found that there isn't necessarily a correlation to price and great tone, but more often that not that is the case.
 
But that doesn't mean the speaker would be better had they used the more expensive parts. It's just a guess on yours and others part.:yes:

Using more expensive/supposed better parts does not guarantee a better sounding speaker. This thread was intended to provoke thought, not just assumption.:thmbsp:

Well I cannot speak for everybody else but I have been doing some experimenting with $2/3 dollar film capacitors and different tweeters. I would have to say that I can hear some differences based on the different combinations used. The differences in certain caps and combinations are interesting to play with. The main thing that I hear is much cleaner tone, film caps get rid of the hash that I hear with the electrolytic caps.

The one cap that I spent a bit more money on that really surprised me was the Audyn Plus cap. So I do believe that you get what you pay for with caps at least up to a certain point.

plus.gif
 
How old are your Boston's? Were the electrolytic caps you replaced with polys original to the speakers when they were new?

I'm led to believe the HD7's were no more than 5yrs old. Much less than the supposed 10-20yr life span of 'lytic's and yes, the caps were original Boston Acoustics branded electrolytic caps.

I had this Ford Taurus GL once. Nice car, it's what I could afford at the time. Come time to replace the tires, I did my research and selected a set of tires that had better performance in the rain than the original equipment tires. To me, this was important. Should I have gotten exact replacements for the original tires because because, gee, they were "good enough" to be original equipment?
 
...
Also, Bob Crites uses Sonicaps in his Klipsch crossovers. A number of people seem to like his products.

Who's right and who's wrong?

There is the debate and I believe expensive caps will improve sound but not at the same cost ratio.
BTW, $15k Klipsch Palladium speakers use Bennic Poly capacitors so no need to pay high bucks me thinks.
 
Oh, it's not just audio equipment. Check out a guitar forum. However, in the case of guitars one certainly can make a guitar sound better by swapping out the electronics. Most stock pickups in guitars costing under $1,500 are pretty ordinary. Just swapping the stockers out with a set of inexpensive Seymour Duncans can have a profound effect on one's tone.

I've modded a number of guitars' electronics (mostly Strats but a Jazzmaster too) and I can assure you they sound much more pleasing to my ear. In the cases where they didn't sound up to snuff I sold the pickups and started over. I've also found that there isn't necessarily a correlation to price and great tone, but more often that not that is the case.

I can believe that, but it still goes back to audio equipment/music reproduction. I just think it's odd that no one messes with any other electrical equipment to improve it.

I'm not an electrical engineer, but rather a process engineer for a circuit board contract manufacturer, so I can't speak too much for the design, but I can guarantee that most products use the cheapest component that "work" as intended, and that's what matters most. Designers only use 1%, and sometimes .5 and .1% resistors when they have to, and better caps when they have to. That doesn't mean their product would work better if all resistors used were .1%.
 
Back
Top Bottom