Why is everyone so against electrolytic caps in crossovers?

[Wigwam Jones]

Also, Bob Crites uses Sonicaps in his Klipsch crossovers. A number of people seem to like his products.

Who's right and who's wrong?

I would suggest that both are right, but about different things.

If you want to restore your speakers to factory sound, then it makes sense to use the same value and type of caps as those originally used by the manufacturer.

If you are unhappy with the factory sound and wish to experiment with it, by all means do so. Redesigned crossovers, replacement drivers, added or removed stuffing, and yes, designer caps, will all have an impact on the way the speakers sound. If you're Bob Crites, with his extensive experience in a given type of speaker and crossover design, and you believe that a given change does indeed improve a given speaker, that sounds logical too. For THAT cap in THOSE speakers.

But it does not logically follow that using a given boutique cap in a given speaker means that the same cap in OTHER speakers will make the same improvement. That's 'magic thinking.' I brushed my teeth last night before bedtime and it rained overnight. The two must be connected. I can make it rain by brushing my teeth.

 

[RS Steve]

800V?

I thought one should stay within x2 of the specified voltage when recapping?

My opinion based on refurbishing many speakers.

It doesn't hurt to have the caps rated for more voltage, it is basically over kill. Using what ever cap brand, or type of cap, is similar to speaker preference, there will be 100 opinions and only one good answer. Use what you can afford, as long as the UF rating is correct the speakers will work fine. We like to think using expensive caps will make them "super" speakers, but it all comes down to "your" ears, and what "you" seem to hear.

I like Bob Crites answer, find a brand or type where the caps all have very similar readings so that you get the same results. It's common sense that using a premium 1% cap is likely to make sure both speakers sound the same, compared to originals rated at 10%. As far as type, I doubt we will have the speakers long enough for them to degrade and need replacing again.

 

[mech986]

I would suggest that both are right, but about different things.

If you want to restore your speakers to factory sound, then it makes sense to use the same value and type of caps as those originally used by the manufacturer.

If you are unhappy with the factory sound and wish to experiment with it, by all means do so. Redesigned crossovers, replacement drivers, added or removed stuffing, and yes, designer caps, will all have an impact on the way the speakers sound. If you're Bob Crites, with his extensive experience in a given type of speaker and crossover design, and you believe that a given change does indeed improve a given speaker, that sounds logical too. For THAT cap in THOSE speakers.

But it does not logically follow that using a given boutique cap in a given speaker means that the same cap in OTHER speakers will make the same improvement. That's 'magic thinking.' I brushed my teeth last night before bedtime and it rained overnight. The two must be connected. I can make it rain by brushing my teeth.

Wiggy, come to California with your toothbrush, we need the rain. :scratch2:

 

[bowtie427ss]

It's common sense that using a premium 1% cap is likely to make sure both speakers sound the same, compared to originals rated at 10%.

In the case of "replacement", probably.

In the case of original component values, assume nothing.

We don't know how those caps were selected for the original network. We don't know if they were hand selected, hand matched, or just randomly pulled from a bin of 10,000 pieces at the point of manufacture of the crossover network.

The tolerance is a very basic parameter and is often "hyped" to mean more than it does.

Consider that a large speaker company may be able to buy large bulk quantities of 10% or even 20% components at discounts large enough to allow them to precisely match sets for their own production purposes. Now, you have a crossover network which in it's final production state observes a less than 1% component tolerance even tho it is constructed with components that state a 10% or 20% tolerance on their wrapper.

Hand matching to obtain the closest possible tolerances is not an uncommon practice. Look at the amplifier threads here where folks have to source a couple dozen differential driver pairs in order to find 2 fairly closely matched in an effort to get DC offset down.

 

[SimplySound]

Wiggy, come to California with your toothbrush, we need the rain. :scratch2:

He needs to stop in NM first!!! And I think this whole subject has gotten that Spidey Tingle going!

 

[SET12]

But that doesn't mean the speaker would be better had they used the more expensive parts. It's just a guess on yours and others part.:yes:

Using more expensive/supposed better parts does not guarantee a better sounding speaker. This thread was intended to provoke thought, not just assumption.:thmbsp:

Your right, just because one uses more expensive parts is no guarantee that one gets a real improvement. Significant improvement comes when people go far enough. IMO most people don't go far enough.


Simple cap replacements can bring an aged speaker back to life but its often not enough to change cap flavors and get something truly significant.

I'd like to recommend a site for caps where there has been some hard work in categorizing their sound.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

There's a lot more to a speaker then just caps, like inductors and of course resistors. But inductors are very serious. I have found their influence to be much more than caps IMO. But don't get me wrong I think everything matters.

Here is a site that has some excellent FAQ's on inductors at the bottom of the page but the whole page is enlightening.

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html



In my case doing what I did was a serious improvement. Far more than then I ever expected and enough to drop peoples jaws when contrasted to a pair of the same factory stock speakers. I invite anyone in the midwest to hear them for themselves if they wish.

My speaker was relatively inexpensive a Klipsch Forte with some of the usual tricks like Crites Titanium Tweeters and the Klipsch Titanium Mids added.

My networks are outboard. I stuck about $2000 into the networks. Not that one has spend this much to get startling results. I have seen people spend as little as $600 on a $600 speaker and I have seen one person spend about a $1000 on parts with the same speaker I have but with some compromise. He was thrilled! I think the thread title says it all.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=516254

The nice thing about these speakers is that the parts values are relatively low and that allows one to use some of the best high subjective quality parts.

Here's my project contrasting the stock networks

Here is another Klipsch product, Rf25's that my friend DaveC put $600 into. In his words the speakers are just explosive!

In essence its possible if you go far enough to make even relatively inexpensive speakers like these sound as though they cost many times their original value. The contrast in size alone is just as well represented in the musics increase in foundation and size.

SET12

 

[SimplySound]

Your right, just because one uses more expensive parts is no guarantee that one gets a real improvement. Significant improvement comes when people go far enough. IMO most people don't go far enough....

OK, OK, OK.... I have firmly sided on keeping stock, stock because I think preserving the way a speaker was designed and is voiced is important.

But I have to give SET12 credit... if I were going to "supercharge" a pair of KEF R107's to see just how much MORE awesome they could be, then that might be "another whole other" ball game....

Let's see, I have three pairs... :scratch2:

 

[Wigwam Jones]

OK, OK, OK.... I have firmly sided on keeping stock, stock because I think preserving the way a speaker was designed and is voiced is important.

But I have to give SET12 credit... if I were going to "supercharge" a pair of KEF R107's to see just how much MORE awesome they could be, then that might be "another whole other" ball game....

Let's see, I have three pairs... :scratch2:

There is a basic assumption being made, and it's not a valid one. That better/more expensive capacitors will IMPROVE the sound. They will CHANGE the sound. That's not the same thing.

They might improve the sound and they might not.

Consider it this way. People come onto AK all the time and ask if they can improve their speakers by pulling out the stock drivers and tossing in others that just happen to fit in the existing holes. What are they told? Generally, that it's a crapshoot. Might sound better, might not, but in general, it's luck of the draw. All anyone knows is that it will sound DIFFERENT than the stock drivers.

Now apply that logic to capacitors, but suddenly people seem to lose that ability to draw a logical conclusion. Caps that cost MORE must therefore sound BETTER. The same logic applies to the caps as applies to chucking different drivers into the box; it will sound different. It might or might not sound better.

No problem with experimenting with an open mind. Try the high-end caps! Just don't be surprised if the result isn't optimal for you. If it is improved, you win!

 

[KiM3Ce]

If you want to read the original Audio Magazine article by Jung and Marsh that started the whole capacitor "thing", here it is:

http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm

They were pretty down on electrolytics, not without reason, for certain applications. I think some folks have overgeneralized their results just like feedback got demonized.

Have fun!

 

[Dr. Morbius]

I think is a pretty funny when someone mods in tighter tolerance resistors to a crossover, or whatever, without even measuring the existing values! As if a 1% resistor that measured 1006 Ohms is somehow better than a 5% resistor that measures 1003 Ohms. (Obviously using a target of 1K for example.)

I've always been an ardent supporter of DIY and repair, as much as any commercial designer I know of. ("Speakers By Design", stuffing methods, Pitts, 1259, etc.) But, I just don't get parts swappers and modkateers. It all seems totally silly to me.

-k

On a couple of pair of DCM speakers I worked on (Timewindows and Timeframe 500s) I checked the values of some 3.9 ohm resistors with my trusty Radio Shack multimeter. All of them measured over 4 ohms and one measured as high as 4.9 ohms. These were 10% resistors. I ended up using some Mills 4 ohms 1% resistors for the 3.9s and some Xicon 5% resistors for the others. The Xicons were a very affordable 69 cents each. The Mills on the other hand were $4.25 each.

Even the parts swappers and modkateers need their hobbies. If they're having fun I don't see the problem with it. It sure beats doing housework.

 

[SET12]

OK, OK, OK.... I have firmly sided on keeping stock, stock because I think preserving the way a speaker was designed and is voiced is important.

But I have to give SET12 credit... if I were going to "supercharge" a pair of KEF R107's to see just how much MORE awesome they could be, then that might be "another whole other" ball game....

Let's see, I have three pairs... :scratch2:

I like the Kef sound myself.

Your right though, it would be supercharging for sure. And it would be another whole ball game!

I have just one pair of supercharged yet the with the sense of space, that's all I need when they can project a very very wide sound stage with solid lateral imaging including projections of images to the left and right of my seated position.

So what was my ball game like after the upgraded parts quality which used stock values other than the DCR of the inductors as in the schematic I posted.

First off, the stock speakers sound stage was tiny meaning that nearly all recordings kept the presentation within the speakers boundaries.

Also the recordings were fairly compressed meaning there wasn't much air or space between performers or instruments and depth was not the greatest. The body was lacking in contrast as well. Most of this is caused by Iron core inductors or very small air core inductors.

The bass was there as most owners like to report. But nothing like what I have now. But after the upgrades it just simply was in another league. Would I say it was the best I have heard? No, but the bass became much more even and with a wider range all most as though I had another octave of extension in both frequency extreme's of the woofer. Mid and upper bass where fuller the speaker had a greater continuity through out its frequency range.

But the biggest improvement for me was the sense of space and air with a great sense of ease. You wouldn't know you were even listening to a horn is what most people tell me.

How big was the sense of space?

The sound stage literally tripled in size in contrast to the stock speaker. I listen with the speakers 9ft apart yet lateral imaging can extend 10ft to the left and right of each speaker depending of recording. When something is big it sounds big! this something that the stock speaker just couldn't convey. Of course associated equipment is a factor as well and has to have the same capacity or the speaker will reflect that associated component.

The bass became so authoritative that one person called it "jack hammer like" and he's a heavy equipment construction worker.

In the end, after this experience. I doubt I could live with any stock speaker network. To replace this speaker I might have to spend $10,000 or more.

The tonality of the speaker was fleshed out as well. Details both micro and macro are very easily heard.

Here are some peoples impressions of what was heard on my thread which now has 120,000 views. The next page 31 has comments as well.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=30

People love to use big speaker cables but I'll bet they never think of all the thin wire between the amplifier and drivers

Here is my stock inductor unraveled tied to my front door

I wish I could live with manufactures stock networks but not after this experience and even if I could I suspect the speaker would be costly.


SET12

 

[Dr. Morbius]

But it does not logically follow that using a given boutique cap in a given speaker means that the same cap in OTHER speakers will make the same improvement. That's 'magic thinking.' I brushed my teeth last night before bedtime and it rained overnight. The two must be connected. I can make it rain by brushing my teeth.

I completely agree. Each change is a sample of one, which certainly isn't enough to make sweeping generalizations. Lots of magic and pixie dust gets sprinkled into audio components.

I've not tried any of the expensive boutique caps for a few different reasons. Firstly, they're priced too high compared to others. Secondly, there is bound to be a point of diminishing returns and the high price is not reflective of performance. And thirdly, there is now way of knowing without electronic measuring devices which are legit and which are pure bullshit.

I would like to try a few mid priced caps in a project but usually they're quite a bit larger than the more affordable brands and I've been limited by space on the crossover boards. Also, it would have to be a pair of speakers I plan to keep for a very long time.

 

[SET12]

There is a basic assumption being made, and it's not a valid one. That better/more expensive capacitors will IMPROVE the sound. They will CHANGE the sound. That's not the same thing.

They might improve the sound and they might not.

Consider it this way. People come onto AK all the time and ask if they can improve their speakers by pulling out the stock drivers and tossing in others that just happen to fit in the existing holes. What are they told? Generally, that it's a crapshoot. Might sound better, might not, but in general, it's luck of the draw. All anyone knows is that it will sound DIFFERENT than the stock drivers.

Now apply that logic to capacitors, but suddenly people seem to lose that ability to draw a logical conclusion. Caps that cost MORE must therefore sound BETTER. The same logic applies to the caps as applies to chucking different drivers into the box; it will sound different. It might or might not sound better.

No problem with experimenting with an open mind. Try the high-end caps! Just don't be surprised if the result isn't optimal for you. If it is improved, you win!

My drivers were intended for klipsch and I use their mid diaphragms and the Crites tweeter diaphragms which was also intended as a direct replacement. Both drivers use the stock motor assemblies.

I would concur with the caps, but as I said there other componets of the network to consider and some of those at least in my networks were extremely damaging to the sound. Also one has to consider associated equipment whether the efforts could be worth it. I have used other pieces of electronics that short changed the revealing benefits of these extreme networks. So someone could easily be mislead in the benefit to be had.

Hearing is believing with what I have done. Not even a contest. Most people can hardly listen 20 seconds to the stock pair. Which makes sense of what was done.

SET12

 

[bowtie427ss]

If you want to read the original Audio Magazine article by Jung and Marsh that started the whole capacitor "thing", here it is:

http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm

They were pretty down on electrolytics, not without reason, for certain applications. I think some folks have overgeneralized their results just like feedback got demonized.

Have fun!

See post #53.

 

[ken kantor]

i would suggest that both are right, but about different things.

If you want to restore your speakers to factory sound, then it makes sense to use the same value and type of caps as those originally used by the manufacturer.

If you are unhappy with the factory sound and wish to experiment with it, by all means do so. Redesigned crossovers, replacement drivers, added or removed stuffing, and yes, designer caps, will all have an impact on the way the speakers sound. If you're bob crites, with his extensive experience in a given type of speaker and crossover design, and you believe that a given change does indeed improve a given speaker, that sounds logical too. For that cap in those speakers.

But it does not logically follow that using a given boutique cap in a given speaker means that the same cap in other speakers will make the same improvement. That's 'magic thinking.' i brushed my teeth last night before bedtime and it rained overnight. The two must be connected. I can make it rain by brushing my teeth.

+1 !

 

[ken kantor]

In the case of "replacement", probably.

In the case of original component values, assume nothing.

We don't know how those caps were selected for the original network. We don't know if they were hand selected, hand matched, or just randomly pulled from a bin of 10,000 pieces at the point of manufacture of the crossover network.

The tolerance is a very basic parameter and is often "hyped" to mean more than it does.

Consider that a large speaker company may be able to buy large bulk quantities of 10% or even 20% components at discounts large enough to allow them to precisely match sets for their own production purposes. Now, you have a crossover network which in it's final production state observes a less than 1% component tolerance even tho it is constructed with components that state a 10% or 20% tolerance on their wrapper.

Hand matching to obtain the closest possible tolerances is not an uncommon practice. Look at the amplifier threads here where folks have to source a couple dozen differential driver pairs in order to find 2 fairly closely matched in an effort to get DC offset down.

You are exactly correct. I can tell you from experience that many of the better speaker manufacturers choose crossover components to match individual drivers. Replacing these with different values or "improved" parts can only degrade performance, referenced to the design intent. (Yeah, yeah, everyone, myself included, always prefers the sound of their own mods, at first.)

-k

 

[ken kantor]

there is a basic assumption being made, and it's not a valid one. That better/more expensive capacitors will improve the sound. They will change the sound. That's not the same thing.

They might improve the sound and they might not.

Consider it this way. People come onto ak all the time and ask if they can improve their speakers by pulling out the stock drivers and tossing in others that just happen to fit in the existing holes. What are they told? Generally, that it's a crapshoot. Might sound better, might not, but in general, it's luck of the draw. All anyone knows is that it will sound different than the stock drivers.

Now apply that logic to capacitors, but suddenly people seem to lose that ability to draw a logical conclusion. Caps that cost more must therefore sound better. The same logic applies to the caps as applies to chucking different drivers into the box; it will sound different. It might or might not sound better.

No problem with experimenting with an open mind. Try the high-end caps! Just don't be surprised if the result isn't optimal for you. If it is improved, you win!

+++1 !!!

 

[ken kantor]

On a couple of pair of DCM speakers I worked on (Timewindows and Timeframe 500s) I checked the values of some 3.9 ohm resistors with my trusty Radio Shack multimeter. All of them measured over 4 ohms and one measured as high as 4.9 ohms. These were 10% resistors. I ended up using some Mills 4 ohms 1% resistors for the 3.9s and some Xicon 5% resistors for the others. The Xicons were a very affordable 69 cents each. The Mills on the other hand were $4.25 each.

Even the parts swappers and modkateers need their hobbies. If they're having fun I don't see the problem with it. It sure beats doing housework.

I bet DCM put those resistor values in there for a good reason: to tune the crossover, and/or to adjust for the particular driver response. It's done all the time. You are assuming you made things better. I think that is a false assumption. Possible but not likely.

-k

 

[Mystery]

If you want to restore your speakers to factory sound, then it makes sense to use the same value and type of caps as those originally used by the manufacturer.
If you are unhappy with the factory sound and wish to experiment with it, by all means do so.

Valid points but how would one know that existing speakers could be upgraded to next level by upgrading crossovers without doing it or hearing upgraded pair?

I mean I have read many threads where they liked stock sound and only upgraded after long time due to peer pressure. And when they did it, they said, "Man I should have done it years ago".
I'm afraid to work on many pairs that I like the sound as it is but wonder if they actually be much better. :scratch2:

 

[kirk57]

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much in these threads is the assumption is that all old caps are bad. I have found, by measuring old ones I've pulled, that this is often not the case. In fact, most of the replaced caps I've measured have capacitance and ESR still within tolerance.

These days I measure first, and replace as needed.