I wonder if the OP got his answer...
I believe that he did...within the first 4-5 responses.
Why so much Wattage ?
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I believe that he did...within the first 4-5 responses.
Read the decware page and got interested in the flea-watt theory and found a review by Steve Guttenberg of the little 2 watt Decware Zen tube amp compared to a 200 watt Bel Canto ss amp.
He reports something I was trying to convey when describing the difference I heard when I quadrupled my amp power. He said:
"The REF500S sounded more powerful than the Zen, even when listening at fairly moderate volume, and dynamics and bass had more energy. Treble detailing was superior and it was nice to have the freedom to crank the volume. The Zen squashed dynamics, even at quiet volume, compared with the REF500S."
He used very efficient Zu Essence speakers for the test.
When I put a 120wpc MC2120 in my system, I got the dynamics, bass and energy I was missing with the 30wpc amp at the same, very moderate, listening levels, so Guttenberg's experience was something I could identify with.
But according to some here, what Guttenberg (and I) reported isn't possible, as a watt is a watt is a watt and an amp can't sound more powerful, produce stronger bass, dynamics and energy unless that extra power is being tapped by the speakers.
Like him or not, he's got ears and has used them to do a lot of listening. He did praise the little amp for its warm sound and better soundstage than the big amp, though by warm he explained as tube coloring, which some find appealing over the detail and accuracy of ss.
nj pheonix
Lunatic Member
I strongly suggest going cornwalls rather than Heresys.
If those were the only 2 considerations.
If those were the only 2 considerations.
If you are referring to me, you are mis-characterizing my comments/questions. A watt is indeed a watt, but how they sound can vary significantly.
Let's assume 2 amps with precisely the same characteristics from the standpoint of distortion curves, damping, slew rate, etc etc ( a theoretical construct, to be sure), other than one can deliver 25 watts before clipping and the other can deliver 250. And let's assume that 25 watts is sufficient to deliver desired SPL without clipping. Why would the 250 watt amp sound "better"? What electrical/mechanical forces would account for this phenomenon?
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Not referring to you. My reply and the quote I was replying to was at the head of my post - it was a reply to user Poultrygeist who recommended reading the Decware link.
If you are asking me why 250 watts would sound better, I haven't a clue why. I've taken a couple of stabs at it here, but other than that...
As for watt is a watt, within the context of this thread, it is a watt is a watt when all else is equal. Haven't see anyone here posit that all amps sound the same at the same output power.
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And that's what I have always said, even repeatedly in this thread.
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
You'll might like this guy's blog. He's a member here and has better amps than I can even imagine.
http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/thoughts-opinions.html
Here's a 95 dB speaker spreadsheet that might shed a bit of light on headroom required to ensure no clipping. No clipping is one of the attributes that provides the "live" sound that some of us are addicted to. I highlighted the watts required for the 95dB speaker to provide no clipping at a realistic/slightly conservative +10 dB level from the avg. One thing I'd mention is on a typical 95dB speaker you do not have much output below 45 Hz typically, unless you have a design with multiple woofers to accomodate it. 20-40 hz output is not very efficient in the loudspeaker world, and requires quite a large cabinet speaker to do it if you really have 95 dB efficiency down to the lowest octave .
If you have dynamic music and you don't want to clip above 80something dB avg music level, you will need some headroom to do it.
Bottom line is I do believe many would be satisified with the 1 watt continuous example at the top of this chart. Some like it a bit different than that. It's just alot of difference in listening habits, etc.
One thing someone mentioned was speaker power handling. Obviously this is important in that you don't want to overpower your speaker and destroy it, but also there is significant loss within the voice coil when heated, i.e. power compression.
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
I once invested in a high power Classe CAP-150 driving inefficient Aerial Acoustic speakers. I'll admit the system sounded powerful with excellent dynamics but it failed in the one area that is most important to me with acoustic jazz. And that is the ability to resolve detail at low levels. The only way I've been able to achieve that is with a flea watt single ended triode amp driving highly efficient speakers. I do admit to using a more powerful ( 20 watt ) ss amp for the separately amped bass woofers.
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Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
I know. I could probably get by with less as the woofers are 98dbs.Cheater
I cannot speak for the OP, but I think the explanation is the underlying assumption is incorrect. I think many folks underestimate what is required and are hearing clipping effects.
In my main environment, 300 watts / channel produces satisfyingly loud levels for most music. With very wide dynamic and frequency range content (think: Rite of Spring), however, I would like to have at least double if not more power for what might be no more than a handful of seconds throughout the entire piece to allow for effortless handling of peaks.
Everybody keeps moving the goal post to a different set of conditions than those being set forth by the questioner.
The question was:
That means the amplifier is not being asked to deliver more power that it's capable of without clipping - not for 1 second, not 1/10th of second nor 1/100,000th of a second - at any time for a given piece of music.
The correct answer is extra power capacity will not contribute ONE IOTA to sound quality under these circumstances - all other things equal.
The question was:
That means the amplifier is not being asked to deliver more power that it's capable of without clipping - not for 1 second, not 1/10th of second nor 1/100,000th of a second - at any time for a given piece of music.
The correct answer is extra power capacity will not contribute ONE IOTA to sound quality under these circumstances - all other things equal.
The Zu's are not that sensitive @ 92.5 according to JA's measurements.
The amplifiers could not be more different, therefore it was not just 2w vs 200w causing what he heard.
If he would have been able to compare the Bel Canto with something like the p/p Torii Jr at 20w I believe a different conclusion would have been reached.
You didn't mention the brand/model of the 30w amp.
Speakers?
What is a very moderate level?
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Absolutely correct as to the question I've been asking. Several responses have suggested a reduction in clipping as the answer, but as you made clear the starting assumption is an amp with exactly enough power to hit the desired SPL with no clipping.
Some folks feel that having an amp with more power than that results in better sound quality, all other things being equal. I'm just trying to understand why that would be, from a technical/scientific standpoint.
It seems to me that any additional power capability is just that...a capability, or stated another way, a potential. It is hard for me to understand how this potential power can have any effect...but of course my lack of understanding doesn't mean it's not the case. I just want to understand how/why.
Side note...I agree that many users are indeed clipping their amps. Think about the ubiquity of 40-50 watt amps and 86dB speakers among AK members, combined with the at least occasional desire to listen an average SPL of, say, 90dB from 8-12 feet away.
The resulting low-level clipping may not be audibly obvious, but it's there, and it is affecting sound quality.
PanheadXR290
Well-Known Member
I own Mcintosh 1200 watt monoblocks as well Klipsch Heresys,Cornwall 2's and Lascallas among other klipsch heritage speakers ,my Lascallas are 104 db efficient & obviously dont need to drive 4,800 watt peaks,however , speakers like my my Mcintosh XRT-28s ,XRT-22s and former XR-290 line arrays are 86 db 8 ohms & on the XRT-28s its 85db at 4 ohms, you try to drive speakers like my XRT-28s with anything less than 1,000 watts & they sound lifeless,much also depends on your speakers linearity but efficiency is enough to make my point.