Maybe it is because they have put a lower power amp in place of a higher power amp and heard no difference or even possibly an improvement.
I know I have.
Why so much Wattage ?
- Thread starter Kevin C
- Start date
-
- Tags
- confused-on-power
Maybe it is because they have put a lower power amp in place of a higher power amp and heard no difference or even possibly an improvement.
I know I have.
And my post #170.
I love reading post trying to explain away what many of use every day, it entertaining
David_NC
Super Member
Yes, you and others do it every day, but until it's done with your amps in my living space, with my speakers, with my source material, and at levels that I want, it remains a 'it works for me' thing and not a universal. For example, I do not like KG4's. Or the 3.5's I had, or the 5.2's I've heard. I was less than impressed with the fully updated Fortes I recently heard. Each sounded like two speakers - one with highs and mids, and another with bass; it was very disjointed, if that makes sense.
I love reading post trying to explain away what many of use do every day, it entertaining
However, I do have a newly updated ST-70 to play with. I'll connect it in place of my normal 200 watt amp and see how it goes. My primary speakers are ADS M12's that are only 87dB efficient, so I'm curious if the 35 watt amp can produce the same levels with the material I generally play (with quite a bit of bass). I do know that the ST-70 sounds great on ADS L-520's at 92dB efficiency and Dahlquist DQM-9's at 95dB. I've wanted to replace the banana plugs on the M12's, so doing this will give me a reason to swap in the ST-70 for a bit... hopefully, it'll cool down a lot before I do it this evening!
Have you ever measured the spl in your room at different distances?
I have and in my living room the rate that it falls off is very slow, not anything like the charts I see that are probably more about large venues.
I listen at more like 8' and with 89 dB speakers I do fine with @ 10 watts; just as the chart seems to indicate for my listening levels.
When I had 85 dB speakers I found @ 20 watts did the job.
Yes, you and others do it every day, but until it's done with your amps in my living space, with my speakers, with my source material, and at levels that I want, it remains a 'it works for me' thing and not a universal. For example, I do not like KG4's. Or the 3.5's I had, or the 5.2's I've heard. I was less than impressed with the fully updated Fortes I recently heard. Each sounded like two speakers - one with highs and mids, and another with bass; it was very disjointed, if that makes sense.
However, I do have a newly updated ST-70 to play with. I'll connect it in place of my normal 200 watt amp and see how it goes. My primary speakers are ADS M12's that are only 87dB efficient, so I'm curious if the 35 watt amp can produce the same levels with the material I generally play (with quite a bit of bass). I do know that the ST-70 sounds great on ADS L-520's at 92dB efficiency and Dahlquist DQM-9's at 95dB. I've wanted to replace the banana plugs on the M12's, so doing this will give me a reason to swap in the ST-70 for a bit... hopefully, it'll cool down a lot before I do it this evening!
sounding great with my ADS710’s also. Little more space tweaking and all will be good in the world. I understand about the heat, that’s the main reason I also have a SS amp
Edit: I actually prefer my 8802 in my system over my restored ST-70
.
Last edited:
QFT from my experience measuring my rooms the past 30 yrs or so.
David_NC
Super Member
I've got 520's, 780/2's, and M12's at home and L300c's at work. I think the efficiencies are in that order. I'll give them all a listen-to. The 300's are at work and not worth taking home for this, as I commute via train. Which amp do you use on the 710's, the Dynaco?sounding great with my ADS710’s also. Little more space tweaking and all will be good in the world. I understand about the heat, that’s the main reason I also have a SS amp
As for the heat... it's currently 93° at 12% humidity, though it'll be in the low 60's tonight. Thanks, Santa Ana winds!
Yes, you and others do it every day, but until it's done with your amps in my living space, with my speakers, with my source material, and at levels that I want, it remains a 'it works for me' thing and not a universal. For example, I do not like KG4's. Or the 3.5's I had, or the 5.2's I've heard. I was less than impressed with the fully updated Fortes I recently heard. Each sounded like two speakers - one with highs and mids, and another with bass; it was very disjointed, if that makes sense.
The arguments have not been that everyone needs to have and enjoy the same systems and loudness levels that we like.
We just don't agree that what we have and how we listen will improve by having more power.
We have had (or do have) more powerful amps and choose to use lower power amps because we like them better in our systems.
I think you're grossly overestimating average listing level at 4 watts. With a pair of 90 dB speakers at a distance of 13', (which, don't forget is 93 dB for a pair with 1 watt input each), I can't even get a meter reading on an MC2505 for average levels which is nowhere near 4 watts; in fact one watt for average listening levels would be high. For most listeners with speakers of moderate sensitivity (which I would classify as 88 dB - 91 dB) average listening levels require only fractions of a watt meaning that even modestly powered amplifiers would have no difficulty providing ample headroom.
Even less is needed with speakers of high sensitivity (95 dB /+) where average listening levels might hover around several 1/100ths of a watt with 20 dB peaks requiring a "massive" 2 - 5 watts to resolve cleanly.
I use mic with analyzer in the room to balance amps on a channel, balance left to right etc but have not taken any measurements with the purpose of determining SPL drop off by distance, but I sure could. What I put in the charts was by the book stuff.
David_NC
Super Member
I'm perfectly aware of the multiple arguments going on here. Go back and read a couple of the first pages. My point is that what works for one won't necessarily work for another due to so many variables. I also stated that I was interested in finding out how a lower powered (tube) amp compares to a SS amp with about six times the power. From what others post, I should be fine with any of my speakers on that 35 watt Dynaco, but I know that I've seen clip limiter lights flash on a previous amp with my main speakers. I believe that amp is rated at 420 or 440 watts at 4 ohms. It'll be fun to hear the tube amp in my system even if it can't play at those levels.
Everything in the spreadsheet is by the book. The only thing I estimated is the 10 dB peak for dynamic range above avg level.
FYI, If you have 90 dB speakers they are rated there at 3 ft distance, not 13 ft.
One member here keeps using 25 watts average as his starting point for power requirements.
Did you hear it?
I don't know if I can find it now, but Danley said he had something like 1,000 watts driving his speakers at not a loud level and was able to measure clipping in his amp. After that I gave up and decided that if I can't hear it..................
Last edited:
And from a lifelong electronics technician that does a lot of prototype installs, by the book is great Most of the time but then the real world happens.
Yes I'm aware of that. And whatever the SPL is at 13', I still do not average 1 watt per channel with most music. Sometimes I'll have to set the meter sensitivity at the -10dB setting (whereby full meter deflection is 5 watts) just to get a reading.
David_NC
Super Member
I guess we'd have to define 'average listening levels' first! I've mentioned it in the past, but at the last SoCal get-together, the 500wpc Mac amp was driving a pair of ADS L1590's. I sat there and watched those meters in the 50 watt mark for much longer than just peaks. The peaks were way over to the right in triple-digit territory. In fact, here's a pic of them at 50 watts, and if I'd been trying to get a pic of peak reading, it would have been pretty difficult on my old iPhone (it's a crappy pic I know). I won't say 50 watts was the average for the entire time we listened to it, but it was definitely not peaks.
David_NC
Super Member
Yeah, it was my amp, my speakers, and in my bedroom.
It was WAY too loud in a average room at average distances. I'd like to try in a bigger space though.Edited to add: I believe it was something like 113dB, according to my meter. I obviously did not do this for an extended time, but it was kinda cool to see what they all could do, and it sounded good (ie no clipping or distortion that I could detect).
The Dynaco will be put in that same system later today.