ODS123
Super Member
While I do have a few albums with misaligned center holes, most are fine. And this particular album is fine too, hence no drifting pitch on DD tables.
Why the disdain towards direct-drive TTs from some audiophiles?
- Thread starter Taketheflame
- Start date
While I do have a few albums with misaligned center holes, most are fine. And this particular album is fine too, hence no drifting pitch on DD tables.
JP
7480 74111110101115
I find very few are fine. They may not be off by much, but most are off.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
Wow, those look really cool... Langer seem to Express a similar sentiment about why direct drive left the market on their own website.
I wonder how expensive they are, those are some turntables which look extremely promising. I really had no idea Langer exists at all, but I would love to hear one!
vinylGirlFl
Super Member
Yes.
same reason people bash slider bars on gear over knobs: personal preference/opinion.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
People want to define their world with either/or definitions. This is true of audio also, so things like solid state is good tubes not so much. Analog is better than digital. Negative feedback in amplifier design is bad. Moving coil cartridges are good. High output moving coils are not as good as low output. Two way speakers are preferable. So on and so forth. This defines this topic also. Belt drive is best, or direct drive is best. Yet this is rarely a discussion about implementation. Couple this with the idea that people want to have made the "right" choice, so they defend their position staunchly.
Two other areas to be concerned with are oversimplification and the flip side of dogma. Putting forth the idea that all a turntable has to do is spin the correct speed without adding anything to the signal, or that tone arms just have to let cartridges do their job and track the record are dismissive of how difficult it is to get the complete picture from a slab of vinyl. There are cancellations and nodes in materials that affect the overall performance of a table, how to isolate the motor from the plinth, how the tone arm deals with energy imparted in it from the cartridge, how the isolation system if any works in terms of mechanical feedback, and how to build it all to a price that the market will accept. On the other side the hyper focus of only one way to do things is just as problematic. Thinking that only direct drive, only belt drive, only low mass, only suspended, only high mass, is capable of great analog playback is something that I suspect all of us have gravitated to at one time.
Stereotyping. Audio snobs only like belt drive. That ignores the fact that there have been many direct drive tables that were embraced by audiophiles. Goldmund made some. Brinkmann makes them. VPI makes them. The top tier models from Technics, Sony, Kenwood were all respected. Spinning a narrative of us versus them is not accurate, but it does create a sense of I belong with these guys.
Just the thoughts of a simple barnyard animal. We like good food, soft hay, and warm sun. If you want a second opinion go talk to the cows for they are wise. Do not talk to the chickens, as fowl are known liars and they cheat at cards.
Cheers
Mister Pig
Two other areas to be concerned with are oversimplification and the flip side of dogma. Putting forth the idea that all a turntable has to do is spin the correct speed without adding anything to the signal, or that tone arms just have to let cartridges do their job and track the record are dismissive of how difficult it is to get the complete picture from a slab of vinyl. There are cancellations and nodes in materials that affect the overall performance of a table, how to isolate the motor from the plinth, how the tone arm deals with energy imparted in it from the cartridge, how the isolation system if any works in terms of mechanical feedback, and how to build it all to a price that the market will accept. On the other side the hyper focus of only one way to do things is just as problematic. Thinking that only direct drive, only belt drive, only low mass, only suspended, only high mass, is capable of great analog playback is something that I suspect all of us have gravitated to at one time.
Stereotyping. Audio snobs only like belt drive. That ignores the fact that there have been many direct drive tables that were embraced by audiophiles. Goldmund made some. Brinkmann makes them. VPI makes them. The top tier models from Technics, Sony, Kenwood were all respected. Spinning a narrative of us versus them is not accurate, but it does create a sense of I belong with these guys.
Just the thoughts of a simple barnyard animal. We like good food, soft hay, and warm sun. If you want a second opinion go talk to the cows for they are wise. Do not talk to the chickens, as fowl are known liars and they cheat at cards.
Cheers
Mister Pig
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Supercool!
Super Member
Please identify the tt/cart pre combo and the circumstances...this is the kind of info we need!
BTW I see far more belt bashing than dd bashing these days..it was true ten years ago but now at least on AK there seems to be a bigger audience for vintage and dd. In many ways this thread is exemplary of that. People’s tastes and standards vary widely and IMHO many are really in love with ideas more than assessing performance first hand.
PS.. Right On Mr. Pig! Nicely said
hatrack71
distracted by everything
One thing is for sure, I would like to get a better TOTL direct drive table some day. I'm impressed with mid-level Technics so I'd most likely be floored by something heavier and prettier. LOL but I am as much a sucker for looks as performance. I vaguely remember a few Japanese DDs from the early 80's that were massively overbuilt but it isn't coming to mind at the moment. I'm talking about tables that are bigger and beefier than say for example a Denon DP-59 L.... which I do like.
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jblnut
Don't Overthink It
hatrack71
distracted by everything
lini
just me...
I haven't visited Alfred for quite a while, so my info might be outdated, but iirc the No. 7 used to be ~ 7000 Euro. Well, and regarding the sound quality: Unspectacular in a way - in that sense, that really good audio equipment tends to disappear and simply lets your hear the recording.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
stratokaster
Mental toss flycoon
Ittok / Goldring-rebuilt Troika (it's rather easy to make an educated guess about the turntable now
) / Rega AriaHeard at a friend's place, he himself thought his Lenco L75 with Linn Basik Plus and some cheap MM cartridge (into the same Rega phonostage) reproduced it much better.
percivilla
Well-Known Member
My last three no.1 tables have been an idler, belt and DD in that order. No preference from me. I do find the simplicity of DD appealing, literally one moving part: the platter.
It's always fascinating watching people tell one another what they shouldn't like to justify their own decisions and opinions. Easy to let our insecurities get the better of us isn't it? Shhhh, let people enjoy things...
It's always fascinating watching people tell one another what they shouldn't like to justify their own decisions and opinions. Easy to let our insecurities get the better of us isn't it? Shhhh, let people enjoy things...
BilboBaggins
Addicted Member
This is similar in a way to trying to find a system that appeals to someone with a golden ear. I am cursed with one, and it took a lot of time and money to find the combination or type of combination that worked for me. Every time I was engaged by someone to do the same for them, it has been a similar struggle every step of the way. In the end, each of them ended up taking a different pathway, even if the starting path was similar. It all came down to what was available that I knew could do the job in the right price range.
For me, my biggest single improvement was to move away from the Marantz 1530 and its very poor phono preamp section. That was huge! Once amp/speakers/preamp were settled on, you can hear differences that you couldn't hear before because the preamp masked it. Certain types of tables seem to stand out more than others. Thorens, better dual(direct drive and rim drive, I've never liked their BDs), better Sony, better Technics, better Yamaha, B&O (my 4002 is BD, and has no electronics, basically electro-mechanical), better Kenwood, etc. I never tried VPI, Sota, Rega, or any of that style of BD. I almost did a few times, but they fell through for one reason or another.
I've found in general, if the turntable has a good weight to it, that is the first most important factor in my books. How well are vibrations, footsteps, etc isolated from the arm and platter? From the plinth? Then there is the arm. And the cartridge/stylus. Each step will likely bring someone down a different path. Where they stop, depends on how they hear, what they listen to, and how they listen. Each person is unique, which is why I have yet to run into two people with identical sound systems.
Another thing to note is that many of Japan's best tables were never sold outside of Japan. We are only recently starting to see more of these quality pieces showing up in Europe or North America.
I still have one belt drive turntable. The B&O 4002. I'm also keeping my Dual 1019 Rim Drive. I love both of them. And I have three other direct drives that I use regularly. My best, daily. Trust me, there is a big difference with my best table! It totally decimates my other turntables in every way that matters to me. And those other tables I have are the best of 100+ tables that have passed through my doors.
For me, my biggest single improvement was to move away from the Marantz 1530 and its very poor phono preamp section. That was huge! Once amp/speakers/preamp were settled on, you can hear differences that you couldn't hear before because the preamp masked it. Certain types of tables seem to stand out more than others. Thorens, better dual(direct drive and rim drive, I've never liked their BDs), better Sony, better Technics, better Yamaha, B&O (my 4002 is BD, and has no electronics, basically electro-mechanical), better Kenwood, etc. I never tried VPI, Sota, Rega, or any of that style of BD. I almost did a few times, but they fell through for one reason or another.
I've found in general, if the turntable has a good weight to it, that is the first most important factor in my books. How well are vibrations, footsteps, etc isolated from the arm and platter? From the plinth? Then there is the arm. And the cartridge/stylus. Each step will likely bring someone down a different path. Where they stop, depends on how they hear, what they listen to, and how they listen. Each person is unique, which is why I have yet to run into two people with identical sound systems.
Another thing to note is that many of Japan's best tables were never sold outside of Japan. We are only recently starting to see more of these quality pieces showing up in Europe or North America.
I still have one belt drive turntable. The B&O 4002. I'm also keeping my Dual 1019 Rim Drive. I love both of them. And I have three other direct drives that I use regularly. My best, daily. Trust me, there is a big difference with my best table! It totally decimates my other turntables in every way that matters to me. And those other tables I have are the best of 100+ tables that have passed through my doors.
wushuliu
Super Member
Absolutely. The cheaper used tables I see sell for bargain prices in Japan are still *way* nicer than a lot of the mid-fi used models here in North America.
timmy.timmy
Well-Known Member
But you did. For proof your OP took fire instantly. So I started to read some yesterday with already 3 pages of responses but all that free hate and rant meaningless argumentation just put me off. Came back to it later when the posters seemed of more relax with matured content. While your presentation is meaningful, your title and post end point are mere typical 'social media' infatuation. Not only it is incendiary, it is also semantically incorrect. Disdain is toward people and people only... Originally at least. French word that is apparently used in the modern tintenet language and twisted to allow it's use toward modern consumerism or 'everyday' (for some at least) objects... Still not in French though.
Not to like or to emit critics on something that is dearly beloved by others is not bashing. Bashing is insulting, twisting truth into lies to give the worst profile to someone, ideas or one's creation. Once again (you're not the first or the last one I am afraid) using that social media word/term to take a 'victim' stance allowing thus to be rightfully hateful toward any one daring to not agree with you is rather uninviting to start an 'constructive' discussion. Reading the start of your post it seemed you did not intend so. Unless...
The 3 main drive system of turntables all have their stronger and weaker sides. Simple as that.OK, good for you but this has nothing to do with your 'turntable' drive as such. it's all to with your tonearm overhang, VTA adjustments and your cartridge alignement if ever. Although the alignement of your cartridge with it's conical stylus is not affecting the 'tracking' or the 'IGD' for that matter. SRA, VTF, azimuth and the tonearm to cartridge resonance is.
Et voilà ! Some like oranges and apples. Some only like one of the kind. And we all taste them differently a little, a lot or not at all. But who really knows what the other kin taste in them ? That still can't be scientifically measured. And love, taste or preferences or anything subjective is not about specifications. Or only if maybe some. Or more for others... If ever.
As I said before; the hate word... Even though I fell out of love of DD turntables some 8 years ago (owning them for 30 years prior) I can only be glad for someone who is absolutely happy with his DD turntable, so I don't hate them DD. When I DJ out that's what I have to play my records on. And it is indeed easy, practical and reliable 4 that. Nothing I admire though. That's where maybe the issue lies; the infatuated 'hype' around them.
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cafe latte
Addicted Member
This is the sort of aggressive post VE does not need ie Tiny Tim response we can discuss without offending, debate does not have to be done in this way. Turntables not world peace. My 2cBut you did. For proof your OP took fire instantly. So I started to read some yesterday with already 3 pages of responses but all that free hate and rant meaningless argumentation just put me off. Came back to it later when the posters seemed of more relax with matured content. While your presentation is meaningful, your title and post end point are mere typical 'social media' infatuation. Not only it is incendiary, it is also semantically incorrect. Disdain is toward people and people only... Originally at least. French word that is apparently used in the modern tintenet language and twisted to allow it's use toward modern consumerism or 'everyday' (for some at least) objects... Still not in French though.
Not to like or to emit critics on something that is dearly beloved by others is not bashing. Bashing is insulting, twisting truth into lies to give the worst profile to someone, ideas or one's creation. Once again (you're not the first or the last one I am afraid) using that social media word/term to take a 'victim' stance allowing thus to be rightfully hateful toward any one daring to not agree with you is rather uninviting to start an 'constructive' discussion. Reading the start of your post it seemed you did not intend so. Unless...
OK, good for you but this has nothing to do with your 'turntable' drive as such. it's all to with your tonearm overhang, VTA adjustments and your cartridge alignement if ever. Although the alignement of your cartridge with it's conical stylus is not affecting the 'tracking' or the 'IGD' for that matter. SRA, VTF, azimuth and the tonearm to cartridge resonance is.
Et voilà ! Some like oranges and apples. Some only like one of the kind. And we all taste them differently a little, a lot or not at all. But who really knows what the other kin taste in them ? That still can't be scientifically measured. And love, taste or preferences or anything subjective is not about specifications. Or only if maybe some. Or more for others... If ever.
As I said before; the hate word... Even though I fell out of love of DD turntables some 8 years ago (owning them for 30 years prior) I can only be glad for someone who is absolutely happy with his DD turntable, so I don't hate them DD. When I DJ out that's what I have to play my records on. And it is indeed easy, practical and reliable 4 that. Nothing I admire though. That's where maybe the issue lies; the infatuated 'hype' around them.
Happy thoughts..
Chris
I agree. Phono pre-amps make a huge difference. In my opinion, perhaps as much as the cartridge.
If you have what you like and like what you have, why worry about what others think? There's always something "better" out there. And opinions are like @ssholes; everybody has one. There are great examples of all of the turntable designs available. I don't ever dis anyone else's equipment choices. Just enjoy the music the way YOU like it. Experiment if you like.