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Wood Glue as Vinyl Cleaner

I tried this with the Elmer's wood glue last week. The LP had a number of background clicks. The LP appeared immaculate, no scratches but still had the embedded dust in the grooves.

The album had 50% of the clicks removed. Those that remained were muted. Only one in my test song remained untouched. I will try again when I find Titebond II.
 
hrgiger said:
Okay here are clips from the Elmer's clear school glue. I found that squirting it on the album and them smoothing it out with a 1" paintbrush works well (gets good coverage a little thinner.) Took about 2 hours to dry and peel easily. It worked at least as well as any of the others I've tried. I may try a second time to attempt to get the stubborn clicks that are still there, but listen for yourself, like night and day.

Pay special attention to the part after 0:40...


Before clear glue

After clear glue
Click to expand...

Great post, thanks! Did you wash the record before the first sample?
 
I have had no luck finding the Elmer's school glue gel, so I took a gamble on the CVS house brand stuff. "Caliber School Glue Gel." It's blue. I tried it on a couple of albums and I hope it cleans as well as it handles. Great stuff. It spreads so smoothly and easily, like shaving cream. It seems to take a lot less glue to cover, and forms a much thinner film than the other glues I've tried. The only downside is that it is so clear that it is hard to gauge the coverage and uniformity. The best part: I glued up an album, put a fan blowing on it, and peeled it in ONE HOUR. I can't listen critically right now, but it ought to be as good as the other glues I've tried except for MAYBE Aleene's. The Aleene's grabs onto the record MUCH more tightly than any of the others, and I surmise that it might also grab onto dirt that much more tightly also. I just don't know how to evaluate which is better.
 
JonL said:
I have had no luck finding the Elmer's school glue gel, so I took a gamble on the CVS house brand stuff. "Caliber School Glue Gel." It's blue. I tried it on a couple of albums and I hope it cleans as well as it handles. Great stuff. It spreads so smoothly and easily, like shaving cream. It seems to take a lot less glue to cover, and forms a much thinner film than the other glues I've tried. The only downside is that it is so clear that it is hard to gauge the coverage and uniformity. The best part: I glued up an album, put a fan blowing on it, and peeled it in ONE HOUR. I can't listen critically right now, but it ought to be as good as the other glues I've tried except for MAYBE Aleene's. The Aleene's grabs onto the record MUCH more tightly than any of the others, and I surmise that it might also grab onto dirt that much more tightly also. I just don't know how to evaluate which is better.
Click to expand...

WOW! Off to CVS I go!!!
 
What Am I Doing Wrong?

And now my follow up to the above post.

I bought two bottles of Titebond II yesterday. In the evening I coated the the same side of the same LP I had used the Elmer's wood glue on. Again, I used an old Insurance card to spread the Titebond II. It was thinner and easier to spread than the Elmer's. It almost flowed too easily, I had to touch up some spots where I left gaps in the glue.

When I went to bed the LP was almost dried. This morning at 5:00 it was dry. I removed the glue by scratching an edge to start it and used some Painter's tape to peel. It peeled very easily. It is flexible and feels like a thin rubber mat.

Playing I still had a number of dust clicks. Some were still those that clean your ears out. So I think I am doing something wrong.

Most of the dust that was embedded in the grooves is gone. Possibly what I hear as low impact clicks are permanently deformed vinyl? The LP wasn't cleaned with anything before. It looked pristine and the noise on it was surprising. But I admit some new LPs have similar noise on them.

Any suggestions will be happily accepted!

I want this to work as well as the audio clips in this thread.
 
Some clicks and noise are in the vinyl itself and cannot be removed by any method. Some may be static electricity, a Zerostat is said to be effective on that (but read the cautions about the effect on electronic components). I don't think you are doing anything wrong. Some records just cannot be "saved."
 
Grainger49 said:
And now my follow up to the above post.
...It peeled very easily. It is flexible and feels like a thin rubber mat.

Playing I still had a number of dust clicks. Some were still those that clean your ears out. So I think I am doing something wrong....

Any suggestions will be happily accepted!

I want this to work as well as the audio clips in this thread.
Click to expand...

It is probably true that not all LPs can be saved.

However, in my relatively limited experience I have found that the easier it is to peel off the glue, the less effective the treatment was. Once you think about it, it really makes sense. If the glue has really penetrated the grooves, it will take some effort to take it out.

My theory (can't say I have proof - just indications) is that the glue needs to be thinned a bit, to the extent it flows like honey, poured and set using a paintbrush in a relatively thick layer of at least 2mm on an LP that has previously been cleaned by water or - prefferably - alcohol. If there is still some alcohol on the surface, all the better.

I have tried this on an LP that had unbearable crackling noise as well as increased distortion. It hasn't become perfect but is perfectly listenable now. I will be trying the same process on some of the worst LPs I have, most likely classical music - as they are unbearable with constant clicking. This time I will make sure to make a before recording.

PS. I understand that "flowing like honey" is far from deterministic. Will try to find a better analogy.
 
SaSi said:
It is probably true that not all LPs can be saved.

However, in my relatively limited experience I have found that the easier it is to peel off the glue, the less effective the treatment was. Once you think about it, it really makes sense. If the glue has really penetrated the grooves, it will take some effort to take it out.

My theory (can't say I have proof - just indications) is that the glue needs to be thinned a bit, to the extent it flows like honey, poured and set using a paintbrush in a relatively thick layer of at least 2mm on an LP that has previously been cleaned by water or - prefferably - alcohol. If there is still some alcohol on the surface, all the better.

I have tried this on an LP that had unbearable crackling noise as well as increased distortion. It hasn't become perfect but is perfectly listenable now. I will be trying the same process on some of the worst LPs I have, most likely classical music - as they are unbearable with constant clicking. This time I will make sure to make a before recording.

PS. I understand that "flowing like honey" is far from deterministic. Will try to find a better analogy.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm....

When I said it peeled easily I meant that it came off in a single flexible piece. I don't know if I would equate the flexibility of the resulting "mask" with how well it grabs the dirt. And maybe that does follow. The Elmer's was less flexible and took two pieces of tape to get it off. The Elmer's also left brittle pieces of glue in the lead in groove area.

Titebond II spread well as if it were allready thinned. The Elmer's was much thicker, more like honey. Elmer's didn't clean as well for me as the Titebond. Flowing would be cohesion, pulling up dirt would be adhesion. I see here that the more the glue adheres to the vinyl the better is should be in pulling dirt out of the grooves.

But neither removed all the noise.

Now to try on an LP that a friend had when he was a teenager. All of his that he gave me look worse than most GW finds.
 
If you want adhesion, use Aleene's. I've tried Elmer's glue-all, Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue (Interior), Titebond II, and Caliber (CVS) School Glue Gel. The Aleene's is amazing stuff. It is so tenacious on the vinyl, that a thin disc could easily bend 45 degrees or more when you tug on the glue film during peeling. It is actually difficult to peel it away from the vinyl, and the glue film stretches like crazy when you do it. Amazingly, the glue film is strong enough to stay intact under all that force. Aleene's is a little different to spread, it almost seems "dry." It is tacky, and doesn't flow at all but I am confident it gets into the grooves under the pressure of the squeegee and from gravity as it sets up. I haven't tried thinning it, perhaps I will. I have to get another bottle.
I have tried thinning Elmer's and Titebond with distilled water and with water and a little IPA. IMO it makes it too runny, making application more difficult, and the glue will migrate to low spots if the disc isn't perfectly flat and level. This makes the film thickness erratic and drying time much longer due to the thick spots. I won't say for sure if it makes a difference in cleaning the record, but it might be an improvement.

The gel glue spread easily, though it was easy to make it too thin. It dried FAST, and peeled easily. If adhesion is a measure of cleaning ability, I'd rank it fair because it peels so easily.
 
Jon,

I don't know if adhesion is the key but more time and experimentation may tell.

Thanks for the info. I'll look for some Aleene's.
 
PS on Aleene's: To start it peeling, I found that simply sticking some scotch tape to the dried glue will give a tab to start it going. You *might* have to get just a tiny bit of a peel started at the edge with a fingernail or sharp blade first. The tape sticks to the dry Aleene's almost like they're welded together. It's really something!
 
I know ive been shot down here by a couple fans of Elmers Wood Glue (Int) but Ive gone back and done some MORE testing to confirm that my experience was not a fluke.

To RECAP: Ive been glue cleaning for nearly 2 years now, done many many (too many to count) discs, using Titebond II and having great success and consistency. Ive tried regular Titebond and found it drys too brittle (self destructs) and has nearly no shear stregnth. I tried Elmers Wood Glue (Interior) and had results somewhere between regular Titebond and Titebond II.

My last post was rebuffed (politely i must say) by 2 members who swear the Elmers is excellent. Let me explain the results, or findings of just exactly what I find wrong with the Elmers:

-Spreading is very similar to Titebond II, but viscosity is slightly less.
-Dry time is longer than Titebond II. (verified)
-Glue dries thinner for a given wet spread.
-Dried film MUST be removed as SOON as possible JUST after it has become dry. Elmers dries with no elasticity at all. Once the film is clear the mask will increase in brittleness with every hour. Failure to remove film immediately will make removal more messy.
-FYI Titebond II dries hard yet retains extremely striong elasticity. I have old pulled disc films on titebond II that are over 2 months old and they are still pliable and stretchable without tearing (it is actually difficult to tear them, you can roll them crumple them stretch them and fold them without cracking or tearing)
-A removed dried glue mask of Elmers Wood Glue (Int) will easily shatter and splinter into brittle shards after 12 hours.

My conclusion:
The actual "cleaning" performance of Elmers is right up there with Titebond II with a significant cost savings. However, time is critical, and removal CAN be a mess if a thin film method is used. Thicker glue application does reduce breaking and cracking on removal, but this negates the cost savings per bottle as more glue is used per record. Elmers leaves more "edge strings" that must be removed separately than Titebond II.

Having a highly elastic glue such as Titebond II allows the user to remove films at any convienient time and not have to worry about pulling the film as soon as possible. In addition, Titebonds dry time is 6-10 hours (no fan), where Elmers Int. Wood Glue has taken anywhere from 12-26 hours (yes, 26 hours, no kidding!) (no fan)

Just my experience, but ive gone through this on two separate occaisions now and have given my honest results. I wish Elmers were as good as Titebond as the cost savings is significant.

I have just bought a bottle of Aleenes Tacky Glue at Wal-Mart for VERY cheap and will try that next! I really hope it works as well as Titebond II!
 
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Mike,

I have only tried two glues, Elmer's and Titebond (the two you are posting about). I have to say that your experience almost exactly was duplicated by me.

I let both dry overnight and I think my Elmer's wasn't as brittle as your experience. But I am still finding shards. So maybe I'm wrong about how brittle it was.

I thought the Elmer's was really thick, viscous, and the Titebond was much thinner.

BUT... I think some of the differences seen here are due to temperature and humidity differences in our specific locations.

I will use this not for GW finds but for those LPs that I want to listen to often and want as many of the clicks out of as possible.

I think that JonL is saying that for him in his location that the Elmer's is working better. I prefer the Titebond because of the ease of peel.

I'm glad to hear guys say that they clean about the same.
 
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I wouldn't say the Elmer's is working better for me than Titebond II. I haven't used Titebond II in quite a while, but my recollection is that there wasn't much difference between that and Elmer's the way I use them. I'll pick up a bottle of Titebond soon and try it again. I do want to get a new bottle of Aleene's and try putting it on a little thinner than I had to see how fast I can get it to dry. I'm disenchanted with the CVS School Glue Gel... It just doesn't seem to pull the dirt out.
 
Kind of an update. I have a Nautilus Crosby Stills & Nash (first album) that has some noise. I just put Titebond II on the first side.

I'll peel later, maybe tomorrow morning and give the two sides a comparison.
 
I'll add a few additional clarifications that I forgot to mention (thanks Grainger for reminding me):

Humidity most likely DOES have some effect on how brittle the Elmers dries. My take on this is that with high humidity and the "right" temps Elmers can peel very nicely and have a bit of elasticity when dry. However, I believe ive only ever seen those "perfect conditions" once using the Elmers Int. Wood Glue. Nice if you can get it, but rare. Titebond II, on the other hand, is much less susceptibel to changed in Temp and Humidity, and on the worst day Titebond II performs no worse than Elmers on the BEST day. On most other days Titebond is an absolute dream. That is my biggest complaint. (That and I can leave Titebond on for a day or two and it still peels great!)

As far as my note that the Elmers is thinner i meant that the dry film is thinner. I agre with Grainger that the Elmers is much thicker when wet. I have to use alot more force to get the Elmers to "spread" when applying to the disc. And once it IS spread it lays out thinner than Titebond II. It doesnt make sense how a thick glue ends up being thinner when layed out to full coverage... except that it needs so much more pressure to "fill-in the gaps". Titebond II is much easier to spread, requires less pressure and when dry exhibits much less shrinkage. (For comparison, Regular Titebond is actually WORSE than teh Elmers Int Wood Glue in this regard, it literally rips itself apart when drying due to its excessive lateral shear/shrinkage!)

Aleene's is next up!

EDIT: Just want to add that i did say the Elmers was less viscous, but i meant thicker. I think its a tricky term to use.... less is more? more is less? ahh!
 
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At bed time the glue was 95% dried. But of course I will have to wait till morning, 5:00, and it will be fully dried. Then I can peel the first side.
 
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