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Wood Glue as Vinyl Cleaner

I glued up two LPs. The first is a really trashed copy of Led Zeppelin (the one with Stairway) it's a porky but has a million tiny scratches and a whole lotta dirt, so I figured what the hey lets try it. The glue definatly helped it play much quieter.

Next up is a copy of Marquee Moon by Television, this copy has always looked NM but played with loud pops and crackles between songs. Conventional cleaning has never helped this record so I glued up side one and it worked! What ever was in there is gone now and it sounds like a new record! Side two is waiting for more glue.
 
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I´ll be damn´ed, this I have to try!
titebond II has been bought in Germany (can´t get it here in the happiest country in the world) I´m making a "turntable" out of a speaker, and a old DD TT. Can´t wait to try this on some "problemchilds" in my recordcollection.
 
Hi Laserdude!

If you shop in germany you can try Ponal Holzleim (Wood Glue). it works great. I use it thined with a bit distilled water which helps spreading it evenly.
 
I use Elmer's all purpose glue thinned with distilled water and a shot of 99% iso. I spread it with a small fine haired artists paint brush to get into the grooves. It always comes off in one piece, and the sound difference is night and day. So cheap and easy, and works great.
 
Possessed vinyl?

Perhaps you removed the dirt demons from the surface? Wonder if you can Exorcise subliminal message using wood glue.
Probably need to get the glue blessed to keep them from returning. The results should make the vinyl immaculate as Mary :D


"Jeffn,
When I taped the pieces of the stripped off glue back together and played it on my Rek-O-Kut (having to play it from the inside out), I distinctly heard Toscanini yelling above the backwards music that Paul was dead!"

- Mario
 
Thinking about this, if there is a groove, it is one wall of one groove and one wall of the next consecutive groove. That would be separated by a flat spot in the middle. Most confusing even if you have that odd turntable that will play backward if you give it a kick start in that direction.
 
Ive briefly played good flat peels... its interesting for about 5 seconds, but then i realize it cant be good .... the stylus easily hops grooves also.... interesting to hear craptastic sections of backward L-R tracks out of sync by 2 seconds... but its not worth the curiosity
 
Quite a forum - love it.

Ok, I jumped on the science & research wagon and have two album tests to report: one with elmers white and the other elmers carpenter glue. My application method is a bit different. I used a small paint stain gun and diluted the glue with 3 ounces distilled water, 1 ounce glue (3to1.) I took a plastic lid with a curled piece of tape underneath to cover and protect the center label. Put three coats - each dried in about 90 minutes (low humidity - 30%) I didn't chance using ISO because the gun slightly heats the air - although the mixture sprays cool - around room temperature. Still, the Wagner spray gun says no flamables - I'm hip.

Results were great. My BTO "Not Fragile" album sounds much better. Lost most all the ticks and gained clarity in treble midrange. Even helped smooth out one "oops" scratch on the song "Second hand" (one of my favorite songs that I relate.)

Elmers white was ok but stretchy. Both peeled off pretty good with a little residual. The Carpenters/wood glue is a bit thicker and required more thinning. I need to play with the glue mixture a bit.
 
spidder, my first impression of your approach was "way too much work and time and a sup-par glue"... but now that I think about it i'll kindly rephrase my reaction:

a) the extreme thinning of the glue would suggest it MAY go even deeper into the groove and/or "embrace" the dirt and contaminants better than full viscosity glue... Hoever, the pressure application method of full vis. glue will force it in and this may be a "wash" (pun!)

b) the multiple applications do nothing to clean better but DO have a very important purpose in "building up" a glue layer that is thick enough to peel. There may actually be some benefit here in regards to remnants... its hard to say but that question IS raised...

c) does it, in the end, clean better than full vis. glue? unknown. However, I would like to see your results using Titebond II with this method, and its performance vs Elmers Wood Glue.


Youre a die-hard "Gluer" now! Congrats and keep the info coming!
 
This is just my impression but the grooves are not that deep. Even unthinned glue should get into the grooves as it gets into the wood.

But to see if I'm on the right track I will take a close look at a peel. That should give me more information. Maybe a couple of magnifying glasses to simulate a cheap microscope. I don't have a microscope.
 
I have done more records today. I cleaned my Chicago Transit Authority LPs (the 360 degree sound Columbia labels!) with ease. However, there were pieces of glue that stuck as I peeled off the rest. I found it easier to lift off the pieces with some scotch tape. It did the job getting glue off the outer edges too. Better than scraping them off with my fingernail (I did this on a test LP with poor results).
 
Paint spray gun: crevasse-cleaning tool

Great to be aboard - thanks for the welcome!

My fun objective was (is) to come up with an efficient, effective method and system used to deep-clean vinyl track LP albums. For this test, my primarily focus was cleaning multiple vinyl LP albums per session (session = application, drying and glue removal period)

The cleaning solution of choice appears to be water soluble glue primarily designed for wood products. (Basically, glue that is non-volatile to vinyl but will tact to the surface.) This description is without delving too much into the chemistry and restricted to my bounded knowledge and the labels of the products. For test purposes, I currently use somewhat expendable albums - I dare say - if there is such a thing.

I used an AC, low-pressure electric spray gun for a couple chief reasons:
“Provides an even, clean coat in a short amount of time and can be used for several albums in one session.”
The spray gun I use is like a hair dryer (low-pressure*) but with a Venturi suction nozzle tip that requires a solution comparable to the viscosity of standard paint stain. (*A high-pressure application would be messy and simply not necessary.) Each layer I applied was quite thin, so I applied three coats to counter any ripping when removing the dried coat. I’m confident the glue can be thickened so only one coat will suffice and the spray gun would operate properly. To avoid excessive over-spray, I set the nozzle to a circular pattern. Two or three short trigger pulls – done. :banana:

Spraying multiple coats in one session is probably not a more effective method to clean the vinyl track crevasses. An album that has sat for years with debris stuck in the grooves will probably require more than one cleaning session but not necessarily more than one coat per treatment.

Conceivably, thinning the glue may provide better penetration of the grooves/tracks. I go with a rule of thumb: Thin enough so when the dried glue is peeled away it effectively removes debris without excessive tearing. So, “Thin enough” is based upon the adhesiveness and elasticity of the dried glue. Of course, any task that requires a high-level of dexterity is at the “Disk Doctor’s” discretion.

The properties of the glue should be tacky enough to stick to the vinyl, thin enough engulf the sound tracks but not penetrate the vinyl surface. So, questions remain:

“What (non-volatile to vinyl) glue has the best removable adhesion and solidifying properties?” :scratch2:

Obviously, there are many factors such as ease of use, cost vs. effectiveness, etc. Cost and easy of application shouldn’t be a major issue if cleaning a few albums.

Semi-Conclusions? A low-pressure paint gun appears to penetrate the vinyl grooves quite well and is an efficient method for cleaning multiple LP's in one session. My test albums came out appreciably cleaner in site and sound. :thmbsp:
If cleaning more than five albums, consider a low pressure paint spray gun. 10 or more albums to deep-clean? Definitely - you could save time/money and maintain an effective, consistent cleaning application. Not a bad idea to use on a semi-annual basis for a group of albums.

Addit test - Brush application/method:
Using a 2-4” foam brush to apply the glue works great, especially if deep cleaning just an album or two. When applying glue, placing the albums on a wax paper platform works well because it’s reasonably inexpensive, dispensable, non-abrasive and stick-resistant to water-soluble glue. Parchment paper could be a comparably feasible, alternate choice. No doubt there are many other appropriate cleaning platform materials.

Next, I’ll try the Titebond II glue. For giggles, I’m tempted to try a hygienic facial mask product – if safe for the vinyl.
Also, I might try a finger-pump spray bottle but finding one that sprays an adequate pattern/coverage may be a challenge.

Allow me to apologize ahead of time for my lengthy reply. I try to be informative without being too droll.:boring: In some cases, I'm reiterating what has already been stated or done but including for clarity. Also, I'm just trying to catch-up.:D

Spin-on!

Thomas


spidder, my first impression of your approach was "way too much work and time and a sup-par glue"... but now that I think about it i'll kindly rephrase my reaction:

a) the extreme thinning of the glue would suggest it MAY go even deeper into the groove and/or "embrace" the dirt and contaminants better than full viscosity glue... Hoever, the pressure application method of full vis. glue will force it in and this may be a "wash" (pun!)

b) the multiple applications do nothing to clean better but DO have a very important purpose in "building up" a glue layer that is thick enough to peel. There may actually be some benefit here in regards to remnants... its hard to say but that question IS raised...

c) does it, in the end, clean better than full vis. glue? unknown. However, I would like to see your results using Titebond II with this method, and its performance vs Elmers Wood Glue.


Youre a die-hard "Gluer" now! Congrats and keep the info coming!
 
Hi folks,
With the continuing dialog about H20 dilution and devising new applications tools for getting wood glue deeper in the grooves, I thought I'd transplant this exchange that opened on another thread here on AK a few months back.

From Andyman 8-13-09
"How much do you thin the glue? Most glues I use seem to be too thick out of the bottle to penetrate to the bottom of the groove.
Also, have you tried scrubbing and vacuuming? how does glue compare? It just seems like a lot of extra work and a huge potential mess that might return less in overall clean.
Just wondering'…"


And again, from Andyman 8-13-09
"And there ain't no capillary action on that vinyl buddy. Surface tension is the devil I'm concerned about and that's why some folks add Triton and the like to DIY solutions to increase the "wetting action".
If water isn't wet enough, one has to wonder about wood glue"

From Mopic5 8-14-09
Hi Andy,
"An ingredient in all Titebond wood glue products, and one I suspect is in most commercial PVA wood glues is vinyl acetate copolymer – more commonly know as vinyl alcohol. This non-solvent agent, I strongly suspect, is what allows for the departure from what would seem like the high surface tension of the glue (viscosity @ 3200 cps) to penetrate deeply into record grooves. When you think about it, a wood glue is going to need to leech into some very tight tree cell grains – like maple for it to do its intended job.
The fact that PVA wood glue can penetrate and remove dirt, dust and debris left on the floor or record grooves, which has been left behind by traditional RCMs with various liquid cleaning recipes, pretty much seals the deal that these PVA glues go deep to get out the grunge.
Since water by itself has a prohibitive surface tension for going deep into grooves (modern “microgrooves”, anyway), I’ve seen no advantage in adding it to PVA glue for penetration purposes. I think its use by folks in this process has been more of an attempt to manipulate drying time."
- Mario

From Andyman 8-15-09
"Thank you sir, that makes sense to me. I'm willing to accept solid science anytime vs. all the crapola spewed about out there.
I'll have to give it a try on some of these LPs that seem to refuse to quiet down despite the absence of any surface issues. But as a longtime woodworker, it just seems so much more messier than a good scrub with a good solution.
I'd still do some sort of wash first as some of these LPs I've found (like the one's I'm saving for Strawman ) have so much filth on them I'd be concerned about them loading up the glue and not getting all the way down to the groove bottom."

Despite Andy's kind words, I'm certainly not staking out any scientific certainties on this. But I do think a lot of the dilution discussion may be leaving the impression with new readers that somehow stock PVA wood glue has groove penetration problems, when, in fact, it goes deeper and removes far more debris than solution cleanings. It's why many of us have latched onto this method in the first place. From my experience with this method, while I see room for experimenting with brands, fans and anti-static guns, I really don't see a problem in saturating the groove with stock PVA and a plastic card spreader.

Just wanted to get this out there.

All best,
Mario
 
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Mario, I agree 100%
Spidder, if you want a fast easy effective and efficient application method i suggest using Titebond II full strength like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq8jkEx7aiA

Doesnt get any FASTER or EASIER than that... and the pressure from the thin plastic card is MORE than enough to push the glue as deep as it possibly can go.
 
After using Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue for a while, I decided to try Titebond II again. I agree that it is superior. By applying it only just thick enough I have a fast dry (under two hours with a fan), and a very easy peel. I have one disc that's in visibly great shape, but it is very noisy. I've glued it twice now (both times with Titebond II) and I think there has been a bigger change between the first and second applications than there was after the first. It's still more noisy than I'd like (though entirely listenable now) and I am going to try a third application.
 
3 apps is common for me on thrift discs... i got a soundtrack original 2-eye 'The Graduate' last weekend (to replace the shabby one ive had for 15 years) and it looked very clean but played only VG+... it took 2 gluings to get it NM- and the third gluing was for "luck"... it is the absolute cleanest it will ever be and plays NM+ (M in most areas)... astonishingly pure... but it took three apps...

Ive had other discs that went from NM- to M after a single peel.... just depends..
 
I'd like to try steam cleaning prior to glue, a la PM Summer's method. Seems to me that the steam ought to loosen the grip of the crud enough so that one glue application would be sufficient.
 
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