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WTB: Choosing a flat-response amplification for... for everything.

MBentefor

MBentefor

New Member
Dear AK-community!

First let me say big hello to all of you and introduce myself:
My name is Gene, I am from Ukraine. Have always loved music - just music as it is. More exactly speaking - a music material. So I never really cared about the sound itself. Is this Dougan's track in mp3-64? Great, lovely listening!
Several years ago because of few reasons I started collecting some vinyls (of a wide genre selection), as an addition to some soviet and chinese turntables, I've bought myself Dual 627q (with a new AT95E). It was all great. However there were always two problems: my amplifier had several issues (will list them later) and my speakers .... let me say lacked something. (amp - Dynasty 9100, speakers - Siemens, some strange model with no info same as the amp)
So now, when I got a little bit closer to all these audio devices, when I understood, that the way some speakers sound is totally not acceptable for me (and some headphones too: for example Xiaomi or Behringers or Beats all of which modify response curve to add more basses - more than was monitored when recording at same volume), when I understood I want "truh" sound; Clear; Flat; Like the one I listen to in life: concert halls, theaters and so on - now I decided to build a new system for myself.
The system requires CD player, cassette deck, turntable, amplifier, speakers. Maybe also an equalizer.
Cassette deck already bought - Denon DRM 800 in perfect state.
I am thinking about getting each item from another manufacturer - so that later i can understand which factory is more reliable (although I understand, that opinion made up just from one-item-from-each-set can not be really correct).
The next step for me is to get an amplifier.
As I am not any kind of audiophile (rather musicphile), I will never spend hundreds of dollars for my components. For example, Dual+Dynasty+Speakers+Cartridge costed me 450 dollars. And that is fine for a full system. Unfortunately, half of that system appeared to be a garbage.
Here is why:
speakers
  1. lack basses and
  2. there is a slight difference in the middle-freqs, so sometimes I hear person singing in the middle, but then suddenly he swims to the right. Then to the left. Then back in the middle. What a nice swimmer!
Dynasty:
  1. no MONO button,
  2. not a single option to modify in phono (change capacitance, load, cut-off (or whatever that riaa point is called), mm/mc or anything else; actually don't need mc),
  3. once per 2 minutes - high frequency jump, which is clearly visible on Frequency Analyzer and on recorded (ripped) track,
  4. SNR on phono inputs is -58 dB, while I need -70 dB - this is the point when you can't hear humming anymore;
  5. high freq humming which is really hearable in some specific points in the room;
  6. and... that's it probably.
After using this amp, I decided that I need at least the following set of features:
  1. correct (~+-0.5 dB) RIAA phono,
  2. low (-70 dB at least) SNR in phono and others too - NO hearable humming/whistling/buzzing from speakers or headphones, no matter how close you are, the only acceptable is veryveryverysilent pink noise, as made by amplification of non-ideal-zero signal,
  3. MONO button,
  4. flat frequency response on normal volume level (have no idea what is normal - probably the one I can listen to in the midday not being afraid to disturb neighbors),
  5. cheaper than 1 trillion USD (actually cheaper than 200 USD).
Of course, other nicey features would be nicey.

Now finally - let's get to the point.
I've made some searching on local "ebay" and found 5 items that look like normal devices. I was able to sort away more than 150 amps, but still I have too few (actually none) XP points to make decision myself.
I will do this the following way: Name - Link to HFE - Price in USD.
If needed - I can also send pictures of the items.
Let's go:

Harman Kardon PM655VXi
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/harman-kardon/pm655vxi.shtml
$196

Marantz PM-52
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/marantz/pm-52.shtml
$140

Marantz 1030
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/marantz/1030.shtml
$144

Braun Regie 450
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/braun/regie-450.shtml
$118

Onkyo TX-DS575
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/onkyo/tx-ds575.shtml
$104

Answer "none" is also acceptable.
Thank you all who answers me!

Oh, one more thing - I am not that good in electronics and free time, so would be nice for device to be reliable - so after buying I will have no need to change something, solder, or buy another amp.

With best wishes from a picturesque Lviv,
Gene
 
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HK has the power do what what you want now and later. Seems fairly versatile with preamp outputs and power amp input for use with other amps if your system grows. More recent than the Marantz 1030 that might not be enough power and might have issues with age if not gone over before purchase. HK is known for sound quality and although Onkyo is good, I'd go for the HK in this list. The Marantz PM looks decent, too but I don't know their newer gear.
The HK is from mid -80s
Marantz PM is 1991
Marantz 1030 is mid 70s
Braun we didn't see here much, if at all
Onkyo is from this century.

Interesting to see what others say.
 
You could be describing differences in production between various recordings. Some are awful, some indifferent and some great. It's possible to assemble a modest honest system that can get most of the best a good recording has to offer, but impossible to have a setup that can do that and make all recordings sound equally great.
 
Blue Shadow said:
HK has the power do what what you want now and later. Seems fairly versatile with preamp outputs and power amp input for use with other amps if your system grows. More recent than the Marantz 1030 that might not be enough power and might have issues with age if not gone over before purchase. HK is known for sound quality and although Onkyo is good, I'd go for the HK in this list. The Marantz PM looks decent, too but I don't know their newer gear.
The HK is from mid -80s
Marantz PM is 1991
Marantz 1030 is mid 70s
Braun we didn't see here much, if at all
Onkyo is from this century.

Interesting to see what others say.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your answer, good sir! +1 point to HK. The HK I was referring to is for sale in my city. Later I will search for others from other cities and provide photos. Do you think it's ok to use post service for transferring amp between cities? Also, in case I will buy it locally, what are the most important parts/routes I should check when looking at it at the owners home?

KentTeffeteller said:
Want flat and accurate, phono, mono button and $200 price point, difficult to impossible to do new, Used takes some hunting and lots of patience.
Click to expand...
And thank you too! Didn't even think about getting a new one. Actually have read a lot of comments regarding older devices (from 80s-90s) being much better than same price modern ones. Or even than a bit more expensive ones.
 
Pio1980 said:
You could be describing differences in production between various recordings. Some are awful, some indifferent and some great. It's possible to assemble a modest honest system that can get most of the best a good recording has to offer, but impossible to have a setup that can do that and make all recordings sound equally great.
Click to expand...
Well, with my Dynasty everything has humming, believe me. And with my Siemens speakers everything sounds too bright.
I am sure it's not that hard to remove these two uhmmmm features. :whip:
 
MBentefor said:
Well, with my Dynasty everything has humming, believe me. And with my Siemens speakers everything sounds too bright.
I am sure it's not that hard to remove these two uhmmmm features. :whip:
Click to expand...
The humming is a defect somewhere in the system, I think the turntable should have a ground wire attached to the amplifier for instance. "Brightness" is harder to explain as there are several reasons this could occur. Speaker placement, AT carts can have a relatively bright balance that serve some systems well and others not so much. The speaker woofers should have good surrounds to sound right if they are older models.
 
Pio1980 said:
The humming is a defect somewhere in the system, I think the turntable should have a ground wire attached to the amplifier for instance. "Brightness" is harder to explain as there are several reasons this could occur. Speaker placement, AT carts can have a relatively bright balance that serve some systems well and others not so much. The speaker woofers should have good surrounds to sound right if they are older models.
Click to expand...
The humming occurs in amplifier itself. I think in power amp. It's not connected with any other system parts. And - just saying - of course I have connected grounds.
This year I've been to Sri Lanka. There is a store in Colombo, in "Arpico Supercenter", called "High Music Store". Their loudspeakers (tall black floor-standing ones) sound so nice that I really want them. However have no idea how to find their contact data. And it was obvious the thing is in loudspeakers. Cartridge was ok, turntable - normal, preamp - very good (but they are mostly good all of them), maybe amplifier - but it was just regular. So I am 90% sure it's loudspeakers. Same for me. My "Siemens" speakers sound cool, but definitely not flat, especially in lower part. To sound flat I should rise low freqs. It does not depend on their position. And seems that cartridge is actually flat (tried 3 others - same result). As we all know, most carts can easily give you lows. The problems is mostly with mids and highs.
 
OK, of course its difficult to diagnose long distance. The humming as you describe may be a problem with the amplifier. The speakers I dunno. At least you are getting out and making your own judgements from experience, but do remember that the quality of the recording productions will vary greatly.
 
Pio1980 said:
OK, of course its difficult to diagnose long distance. The humming as you describe may be a problem with the amplifier. The speakers I dunno. At least you are getting out and making your own judgements from experience, but do remember that the quality of the recording productions will vary greatly.
Click to expand...
You are right. Thanks. I have already learned this from a (mostly) poor quality soviet vinyl (however they also got some really hq stuff).
 
MBentefor said:
Dear AK-community!

...Clear; Flat; Like the one I listen to in life: concert halls, theaters and so on - now I decided to build a new system for myself.
The system requires CD player, cassette deck, turntable, amplifier, speakers. Maybe also an equalizer...

With best wishes from a picturesque Lviv,
Gene
Click to expand...

What you describe is a system that delivers objectively accurate signal reproduction. Amps with this property tend to be more powerful and are equipped with heavy transformers. Pro audio amps are very affordable and many deliver near perfect objective signal reproduction. All of the pieces in the audio delivery chain will have to have matching performance which is no easy task. With well recorded music, you can achieve what you are looking for and sometimes with stunning results.

Here is where the subjective aspect of audio complicates the situation. Poorly recorded music such as the vast majority of popular radio favorites are mixed to sound good on earbuds and digital players. This means that the dynamics are totally smothered, so much so that your precision home system reveals this and prevents you connecting with the music. Instead, you notice how bad the recording is.
 
MBentefor said:
My "Siemens" speakers sound cool, but definitely not flat, especially in lower part. To sound flat I should rise low freqs. It does not depend on their position. And seems that cartridge is actually flat (tried 3 others - same result). As we all know, most carts can easily give you lows. The problems is mostly with mids and highs.
Click to expand...

Sometimes, lack of bass is related to the turntable, miss-aligned cartridge. If the arm is not horizontal while playing, and the front of the cartridge is lower than the back, it will sound "thin". Also, too little weight on the needle will do that, low bass. Increasing the stylus tracking force, and setting the right "VTA" (Vertical Tracking Angle) will do a very noticeable change. Be sure you have this 2 things adjusted. I did it in my system. For years I had weak bass, until I decided to do this (after reading info on the web).

There are other reasons to have little bass. Old capacitors in an old amp, even the speaker crossover. If your tweeter sounds too loud, it will tame the low freqs.
 
Bratwurst7s said:
Hi Gene, You list amps with power ratings from 15wpc to 90wpc. Do you have a power level preference? I was going to recommend a Yamaha A-1000 or A-1020. They show up in ebay Germany fairly regularly inside your price point and are fine sounding integrated amps. Would seem to meet your requirements, including several different phono settings.

A-1000
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/a-1000.shtml

A-1020
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/a-1020.shtml

Cheers,
James
Click to expand...
Dear James. Thanks for your advises! I have none level preferences. I don't like loud sound. Just a normal level, so most of the time even 10W speakers (5 per channel) are more than enough. Unfortunately shipping from Germany to Ukraine seems really high these days. Also 200 USD means including shipping. Also I am so afraid to buy abroad... Locally (in Ukraine) there are several A-1000 - lowest price is 440 USD. And 500 USD for a new one. A-1020 - 230 euros. But the woman who sells that can lower price a bit. So actually if this (A-1020) is the bestest option I can get (and better than H/K) - then I think I can lower price to 195 USD.

blhagstrom said:
If you like vinyl and can get vintage Yamaha, go that direction.
Click to expand...
Thank you, plus 2 points to Yamaha brand.

elnaldo said:
Sometimes, lack of bass is related to the turntable, miss-aligned cartridge. If the arm is not horizontal while playing, and the front of the cartridge is lower than the back, it will sound "thin". Also, too little weight on the needle will do that, low bass. Increasing the stylus tracking force, and setting the right "VTA" (Vertical Tracking Angle) will do a very noticeable change. Be sure you have this 2 things adjusted. I did it in my system. For years I had weak bass, until I decided to do this (after reading info on the web).
Click to expand...
Both stylus tracking force and VTA are correct in all of my cartridges and tonearms. However, VTA - only for my eyes. I don't have a professional test record which helps setting VTA and I don't know other ways.

elnaldo said:
There are other reasons to have little bass. Old capacitors in an old amp, even the speaker crossover. If your tweeter sounds too loud, it will tame the low freqs.
Click to expand...
True, but I feel like the problem is in louspeakers. And the risk is to painful to take: in case I change all capacitors, replace materials and so on - and still result will be same...
 
For speakers I can recommend Canton Karat 200 & 100. Very nice sounding speakers, balanced detailed and clean with very good bass, really surprising bass for their size. I see a lot of them here going for under €100 a pair. Also, although I haven't personally heard the Canton Quinto series (530, 520 & 510)(previous to the Karat series) I'm guessing that they will sound similar. All 3-ways, well built with soft dome tweeters and mids. I've been falling in love with '70s to '90s Canton speakers lately.

At a lower price point I've been impressed with the Grundig HiFi Box 650 & 650b speakers. I've had 4 pairs go through my hands in the last year+ and like them a lot. I'm currently using a pair of 650b's with a Yamaha A-520 amp as my PC speakers. Same configuration as the above Cantons. Not the best looking speakers that I've ever seen but well built. Not ugly, just kind of plain. Sound quite good tho.

All of the above speakers have nice well built crossovers, all air core coils.

http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Karat_100
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Karat_200
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Karat_300
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Quinto_510
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Quinto_520
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Quinto_530

http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Grundig_Box_650
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Grundig_Box_650_b

Cheers,
James
 
Bratwurst7s said:
For speakers I can recommend Canton Karat 200 & 100. Very nice sounding speakers, balanced detailed and clean with very good bass, really surprising bass for their size. I see a lot of them here going for under €100 a pair. Also, although I haven't personally heard the Canton Quinto series (530, 520 & 510)(previous to the Karat series) I'm guessing that they will sound similar. All 3-ways, well built with soft dome tweeters and mids. I've been falling in love with '70s to '90s Canton speakers lately.

At a lower price point I've been impressed with the Grundig HiFi Box 650 & 650b speakers. I've had 4 pairs go through my hands in the last year+ and like them a lot. I'm currently using a pair of 650b's with a Yamaha A-520 amp as my PC speakers. Same configuration as the above Cantons. Not the best looking speakers that I've ever seen but well built. Not ugly, just kind of plain. Sound quite good tho.

All of the above speakers have nice well built crossovers, all air core coils.

http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Karat_100
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Karat_200
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Karat_300
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Quinto_510
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Quinto_520
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Quinto_530

http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Grundig_Box_650
http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Grundig_Box_650_b

Cheers,
James
Click to expand...
What about Canton Fonum 501?
The thing is I've already started searching for a speakers set. And after few days googling I've found out info about Canton, that it was a nice company and respectable one. Also I've seen many good reviews and responds. And at the moment I can find none Grundig acoustics around but "Canton Fonum 501" for a 135$. Maybe 130$. And when you wrote me about Cantons, I was a bit shocked - because that was the brand I was considering at the moment!
 
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I've heard of the Fonum series but have never heard them so I can't give a useful comment except that I haven't heard any Canton speakers from the '70s to the '90s that I didn't like. They have a clear and detailed sound that I like a lot and are well built.

Cheers,
James
 
The sound you're wanting definitely sounds like vintage Yamaha, and one of the bigger ones. CA-810 might be right in your wheelhouse, but anything higher up in that line is going to cost you a lot of money. I think you'll probably be wanting 50 wpc bare minimum. A-x60 series of integrated amps might be a good place to look too.
 
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