You might not believe this!
- Thread starter bolly
- Start date
Originally posted by THOR
A custom motorcycle or car may not perform as well in all areas as a high end stock vehicle, you are paying for hand craftsmanship and having something that is one of a kind, perhaps even made to your exact specifications, not for it to be able to outperform everything else out there
Same would hold true for audio gear such as this.
I agree with you Thor. Just because something is 'custom made' is no guarantee that it is any good. That also goes for store bought manufactured goods!!!!!!! as we all know black plastic crap.
You mention custom motorcycles. They are a special category and I have to say that category is more art driven than performance driven. They are created for the most part to be put on display in shows where the creator's artistic talents are judged.
Cars diversify over more areas of interest I think. In the case of custom cars there is a widespread hobby of making cars look cool without doing anything to the drivetrain to make them higher performance. In fact some koolness mods make the cars less of a performer than their stock counterparts. Example raising the rear to stuff bigger tires in the wheel wells. That compromises the road handling. That is a customization lifestyle pretty limited to the automobile although very widespread.
A far as amplifiers, I don't know anybody that has done a modification to their amp to make it look cool that is known to detract from the performance do you? Custom audio gear is largely a bit of a different case I think. There will be some that don't give a tinker's damn about the looks and will hack a gaping hole to install a better output transformer. To them better performance is the goal. I don't have any problems with that approach, but it isn't the way I like to operate. There are others, like myself that feel as the amplifier gets more and more expensive with good parts and circuitry, that the overall appearance of the thing should also get more desireable. There is a lot of subtle pshycology going on. Take two identical circuits in two identical amps, both using the same parts, one looks like junk, the other is an artistic wonder that is a beauty to behold, guess which one will sound better!
Jack,
When I said that even if they didn't make any sound someone would consider them worth the money, a very rich person with eclectic art interests perhaps I didn't mean that this would be a large block of consumers. Yes IMO such expensive amps should sound very, very good because if it was me doing the buying, my decision would be based on performance first and looks would play a secondary role, but I have never been a rich person with the luxury to make separate art purchases as well as basic necessities, so I cannot think like a rich person, just a practical person for now thank you.
Any amp that I would buy would also have to be asthetically pleasing in addition to sounding very good in order to get me to open my wallet. I would buy a good sounding ugly amplifier only if it offered me a much higher than normal performance/price ratio.As for "Wealthy people buying art, can always buy art that isn't electronic". Of course they can, they can buy whatever darned well pleases them. But just because something has electronic, mechanical or other functionality doesn't mean it cannot simultaneously be a piece of art, desireable alone on its artistic merits. IMO.
I bought a set of hexagonal speakers a few years ago at a yard sale that the owners never knew were loudspeakers. They looked like end tables and that had been how they had been used by this family since they got them. Furniture.
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I seem to have touched a few nerves...
>>>A custom motorcycle or car may not perform as well in all areas as a high end stock vehicle, you are paying for hand craftsmanship and having something that is one of a kind, perhaps even made to your exact specifications, not for it to be able to outperform everything else out there<<<
If you go to his webpage, you will see he has a few "stock" models, they are not really one-of-a-kind, though he will probably do that too. Farrari customers and Rolls customers(or custom made) are totally different and have different expectations, despite similar price ranges. At that price point, I would personally want to see what best fits my expectations/tastes.
>>>umm, josh's amps got their reputation for sound, not for aesthetics. btw, "seem" and "are" are two different words.<<<
And yet, here is another thread discussing their *looks* not their sound. How many people here have actually heard them? I've heard they were good too, but I haven't heard them. Alot of high ticket amps have a reputation for sounding good, including electronluv. Not too many are so frequently talked about for their aesthetics.
Rob-I'm certainly not in that economic bracket either, but I would put sound first as well. Remember, they are still (mostly) low powered SETs, and will need care and feeding.
Jack
>>>A custom motorcycle or car may not perform as well in all areas as a high end stock vehicle, you are paying for hand craftsmanship and having something that is one of a kind, perhaps even made to your exact specifications, not for it to be able to outperform everything else out there<<<
If you go to his webpage, you will see he has a few "stock" models, they are not really one-of-a-kind, though he will probably do that too. Farrari customers and Rolls customers(or custom made) are totally different and have different expectations, despite similar price ranges. At that price point, I would personally want to see what best fits my expectations/tastes.
>>>umm, josh's amps got their reputation for sound, not for aesthetics. btw, "seem" and "are" are two different words.<<<
And yet, here is another thread discussing their *looks* not their sound. How many people here have actually heard them? I've heard they were good too, but I haven't heard them. Alot of high ticket amps have a reputation for sounding good, including electronluv. Not too many are so frequently talked about for their aesthetics.
Rob-I'm certainly not in that economic bracket either, but I would put sound first as well. Remember, they are still (mostly) low powered SETs, and will need care and feeding.
Jack
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yrly
Breaking records is good?
The Electronluv amps on ebay were new and actually being sold by Electronluv (electronluv is the ebay ID). I suppose it was probably to drum up publicity, however it was probably approaching a year ago that they were actually listed and not a lot of this press had hit the streets when it was done. Heck, had I known what they were going to fetch a year later, I would have found the cash and made the bid myself. Well I suppose for every miss there is a win as well.
Huh!?
Yrly,
This is a strange statement you've made. It seems that the desireability of the Electronluv amp to you is not based on the good looks or the good performance as they looked and I presume also sounded just as they do today a year ago.
What you are in effect saying is that really expensive amps are only worth buying if you know for sure that they are going to go up in value while you own them. Forgive me if I find this absurd.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of the existence of the amplifier.
Yrly,
This is a strange statement you've made. It seems that the desireability of the Electronluv amp to you is not based on the good looks or the good performance as they looked and I presume also sounded just as they do today a year ago.
What you are in effect saying is that really expensive amps are only worth buying if you know for sure that they are going to go up in value while you own them. Forgive me if I find this absurd.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of the existence of the amplifier.
Thatch_Ear
Addicted Member
I do like amps that don't look just like a box with stuff on them but the Electronluv looks to be based on something from a British SciFi SitCom. Can a tuning eye tube help an amp sound better or is it just showing off. Even if it does help a bit to tune the thing up it is still showing off and kicking off a lot of energy doing it.
While I admire the originality of the chassis design, no matter where it falls sonically I put these into the "Toys for Boys" catagory. I rate these along the same lines as nose rings and other body piercings, or it sure ain't for everyone. I will let someone else set off the metal detectors, thankyou.
While I admire the originality of the chassis design, no matter where it falls sonically I put these into the "Toys for Boys" catagory. I rate these along the same lines as nose rings and other body piercings, or it sure ain't for everyone. I will let someone else set off the metal detectors, thankyou.
Thatch,
The styling of the Electron Luv doesn't turn my crank either! Too spacey for me too. I do think his crafsmanship is superb however and there's no desputing that the styling is 'out there'. I'm sure many will find it attractive.
I believe Josh has the eye tube wired for full glow and that it is used as a power on indicator only.
From a technical standpoint I think all those high voltage plate caps and exposed wiring is a potential safety concern and I suspect there's no way these could get UL or CSA approval. I am curious how Josh deals with that. In my own amp that I'm nearing completion of I am dealing with a tube cage, mains and high voltage interlocks, thermal cutoffs and other safety measures to assure the safety of the operator or unwitting admirers without compromising the artistic qualities of the piece. This is always part of the design challenge. There is lethally high voltage, and potentially explosive quantities of stored energy in practically all transmiting tube amplifiers and it needs to be kept safely caged at all times. These things need not be feared if properly designed, understood and respected. Is it worth all this effort? Yes, this technology can take audio reproduction to new levels of audio ecstacy.
The styling of the Electron Luv doesn't turn my crank either! Too spacey for me too. I do think his crafsmanship is superb however and there's no desputing that the styling is 'out there'. I'm sure many will find it attractive.
I believe Josh has the eye tube wired for full glow and that it is used as a power on indicator only.
From a technical standpoint I think all those high voltage plate caps and exposed wiring is a potential safety concern and I suspect there's no way these could get UL or CSA approval. I am curious how Josh deals with that. In my own amp that I'm nearing completion of I am dealing with a tube cage, mains and high voltage interlocks, thermal cutoffs and other safety measures to assure the safety of the operator or unwitting admirers without compromising the artistic qualities of the piece. This is always part of the design challenge. There is lethally high voltage, and potentially explosive quantities of stored energy in practically all transmiting tube amplifiers and it needs to be kept safely caged at all times. These things need not be feared if properly designed, understood and respected. Is it worth all this effort? Yes, this technology can take audio reproduction to new levels of audio ecstacy.
yrly
Breaking records is good?
Rob- that was not my exact point, but take my position a year ago when I spotted these. To buy an amp as expensive as it was even offered on ebay, $4000, is a risky venture without actually hearing it. I guess what I was/am trying to say is with those circumstances it is an investment of sorts and a risky one at that, perhaps that is why there were no takers. Like most of my gear, or the vintage watches I collect I will never ever sell them because I take a pleasure in what they do and had I bought the Electronluv equipment I wouldnt have sold that either. Unheard though you have to consider potential resale value in the aftermarket, because if they did not sound good even $4000 would have been a big chunk of change to drop on an amp. I certainly would much prefer to hear any piece of gear like that before using it. If it sounded poor what would one do? I am not saying that Electronluv amps would sound poor but a year ago when these things were up on ebay there was very little in the way of anyone who had actually heard one first hand. This was not a cosmetic/sound issue. You have an unheard of amp, unauditioned by you offered up at $4000 from a relatively new company. Unless you have a way to audition it one has to take that into consideration, because if it does not match your needs you could be stuck with a $4000+ piece of equipment. The story is different when the price is lower. I don't mind dropping $300 on these unheard of Kailin and Audio Experience pieces I bought. To me that might be worth the risk. I mean by comparison I could buy roughly 14 different pieces of gear in that price range. At least then I might find something I like. $4000 can buy a lot of stuff, in audio equipment or otherwise. I paid less than that two years ago for my mint condition 1983 Grand Marquis LS that I will be able to enjoy for many years while it may not be everyone's cup of tea it is something I got to see and drive beforehand, I knew what I was getting and realize that it will offer me what I expect out of it. The Electronluv or any of these homebrew SETs I see popping up on ebay at seemingly regular intervals now may sound fine and may look great but unheard of its a risky investment, thats the point I was trying to get across, one must consider the potential resale or lack thereof because if one cannot hear them firsthand there is no way of knowing what they are getting into. As cheap as $4000 may have been for what is certainly an intersting piece of equipment, I would be much more comfortable putting that kind of money on something I had actually audtioned. Even then who is to say that this amplifier sounds as good? I still don't know as I have yet to hear one. Sure a lot of work may go into one but unless there is someone who has heard one it may have no aftermarket value if it is not what you seek. Take a look at my Audiograph 2A100 stereo receiver (pics in the vintage solid state forum if you search for it and a pic is also in the gallery). Someone put a substantial amount of work into modifying a vintage H.H. Scott receiver to make this thing. It may not look cleanly designed but the noisefloor is so low that you can barely hear it with your ear next to a sensitive horn tweeter at max volume. This is a quality piece of equipment, abliet a forgotten one with an unknown history. At least 20 years from the design of this device not only has no one been able to provide me with a clue as to who actually designed it or when, but I purchased it for $.01 on ebay. So here I have a quality receiver, equal to or even more powerful than even a Marantz 2325 that actually sounds better with an unknown history and apparently no resale value. It is not something I intend to sell, I appreciate the work someone somewhere put into this device (which was certainly a lot of it at that) but who is to say the Electronluv wouldnt fall into the same position in 20 years? IMHO something at that price level is something that should be auditioned otherwise its a risky investment and thus one must consider its resale potential as such. This is not anything against the Electronluv amp, I personally think Electronluv prodcues great looking pieces of equipment but I would not spend more than $500 on any piece of gear I could not hear first. Granted I have not been disappointed by my budget pieces yet, it does not mean the same holds true for all gear. I guess my point was a bit unclear though, in an unauditioned format I look at this gear for its resale value, if they came across today at $4000 I would not worry about purchasing them unauditioned knowing that they would at least fetch me some sort of return if they did not live up to my expectations.
yrly
Breaking records is good?
Regarding UL and CSE certification, I see plenty of gear floating around that is highly questionable. As long as one understands the potential for danger and does not mess around with it the risk is minimal. Many of the tube amps I have worked on (especially these Masco amps I have been restoring from the 1940s) have dangerous potential voltages and must be viewed as such accordingly. Custom gear presents certain risks as well. I see no lable of certification on that Audiograph receiver I metioned in my previous post. The internal voltages and current levels on the power caps and elsewhere could prove fatal without respect to its capability. One must exercise caution with any piece of gear, it just goes with the territory of electrical equipment.
Yrly,
Custom gear is a gray area. When I was building high voltage science displays like large Tesla coils processing 8-10 kVA and hurling 10 foot long lightning bolts around the room just 1.5X that distance from unshielded visitors you can bet I had a concern for safety issues and liability. Any public place like a science center/museum cannot operate any electrical devices under their own liability insurance rules that are not NEC code compliant, inspected and approved by a local or national authority like CSA, UL, etc. I never had an 'accident' and none of my equipment sold has ever caused an 'accident', but I got out of the 'biz' because of liability worries.
I would think if a product was being mass produced and sold in Wall-Marts and such it would have to carry a compliance sticker. Items being custom made by contract to individuals on a very small scale by cottage industry can sneak under the radar but I'll bet the authorities would like to impose their way on even these transactions. IMO, anyone custom building electrical equipment for sale had better maintain safety standards in the design of their equipment since that is the only protection they will have against a possible lawsuit if an accident were to occur sometime down the road when the equipment is long out of their hands.
You say that "one must exercize caution with any piece of gear, it just goes with the territory for electrical equipment". Yup, you know that and I know that and we abide by it, but there are a plethora of air heads at large that are clueless about such things and are an accident waiting to happen. We must try to protect them, not for their sakes IMO (the gene pool could use a little chlorine) but for our own well being.
Morden2004
Relaxin'
I'm no expert in certification regulations but I did have dealings with them many years ago.
In a nut-shell, if you sell a product for money you are governed by the laws where the item is purchased for use. In 99.9% of North America I believe that you must have certification.
Here's the FAQ from the CSA site:
Are product certification marks required by law?
In North America, many municipalities, states and provinces have laws, codes or regulations that require certain products to be tested to a specific standard or group of standards by a nationally recognized testing laboratory (NRTL). However, the laws do not specify which NRTL a manufacturer must use, or which product certification mark must appear on the product.
This would seem to say that products you purchase and use that are not ceritified are potentially illegal and, if you check with your home/business insurer, will leave you liable for any and all damage caused by a failure of that apparatus. I know my insurer has such a clause.
So, that $15,000 art/amp could be the cause of a $100,000 fire for which you could be found liable.
Thoughts?
Paul
In a nut-shell, if you sell a product for money you are governed by the laws where the item is purchased for use. In 99.9% of North America I believe that you must have certification.
Here's the FAQ from the CSA site:
Are product certification marks required by law?
In North America, many municipalities, states and provinces have laws, codes or regulations that require certain products to be tested to a specific standard or group of standards by a nationally recognized testing laboratory (NRTL). However, the laws do not specify which NRTL a manufacturer must use, or which product certification mark must appear on the product.
This would seem to say that products you purchase and use that are not ceritified are potentially illegal and, if you check with your home/business insurer, will leave you liable for any and all damage caused by a failure of that apparatus. I know my insurer has such a clause.
So, that $15,000 art/amp could be the cause of a $100,000 fire for which you could be found liable.
Thoughts?
Paul
Yrly,
$4K is not totally unreasonable in SETland. Many go for more.
I would be willing to bet nobody knew they were for sale, considering how many people rave over them. Now, his gear starts at about $20K.
Thatch,
I don't like the looks either. I don't think I could listen to music while they were staring at me, especially in a darkened room.
I do wish I could hear them though. I am curious...
Jack
$4K is not totally unreasonable in SETland. Many go for more.
I would be willing to bet nobody knew they were for sale, considering how many people rave over them. Now, his gear starts at about $20K.
Thatch,
I don't like the looks either. I don't think I could listen to music while they were staring at me, especially in a darkened room.
I do wish I could hear them though. I am curious...
Jack
Bingo!
However, most custom products will never get certification because the process just isn't worth the incredible cost and bureau-crazy to the builder for a few items that an artist might build. I think there are some forms of cottage industry that cannot comply with all the rules (mostly set forth to deal with large corporations) and exist. Custom amplifiers is probably a very good example. As a consumer, if you absolutely have to have something unique like this you buy it and take your chances. I've certainly never heard of any problems with this status quo in the media that I can recall.
There are no restrictions to building electrical or other stuff yourself and using it yourself despite the fact that it hasn't been inspected or certified by big brother. If there were, R&D and product development would be impossible, so this is allowed. Technically you are not allowed to operate such apparatus off your own property. When you sell it you cross the line. Like I said, it is a radar avoidance issue. If your livelyhood requires that you must fly that close to the ground, you'd better make sure that your homemade airplane is a good, well built aircraft! The quality of your work is your only form of liability protection.
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Yrly,
OK, I see where you were coming from now and tend to agree. I wouldn't spend even $500.00 on an amp I couldn't audition first unless I knew it beforehand by reputation or prior experience with the same model. Anyone with a bit of experience will have discovered that different speakers and amps all seem to behave differently with each other and once you add your listening room to the mix all bets are off. Even if you select recommended components from Stereopile's list, this is no guarantee that the combination of gear is going to make music in your home. This makes buying even well known brands risky let alone relative unknowns. I think word of mouth and forums like this one are invaluable aids in helping one with the difficult decision path towards equipment purchases in cases such as these.
To set the record straight
As I guess the only resident owner of Electronluv stuff, I figured I would weigh in with some facts.
Everything Josh has done is custom, one-off deals. He has only ever duplicated two items and even those were not identical by a long shot. He doesnt' have anything 'stock', at least not at this point nor for the forseeable future.
the speakers and amps @ VSAC this year were not for sale, though he later did build a pair of amps using 242 and 212 around the chassis design of the GM100 amps. They are still working on speakers, and I doubt anything quite like those 4-way horns will ever be produced from him for sale (At least not in the near future.)
The amps that were on Ebay were the 75TL amps. They were up with an opening bid of $9500. If I Had the $ I would have bought them in a heartbeat. I have heard them in a couple different forms both at his house and in other locations. They had no bidders on Ebay. He later sold them to a client overseas for $35k, which was his asking price when he exhibited them @ CES.
I own the 45/845 amps (picture posted by MiKE, thanks.), which are one-of-a-kind, and were the 2nd pair of complete amps he had built. I bought them sight unseen or unheard, and we developed the concepts and tube choices (and iron choices, topology, etc.) as we went along. I pretty much gave him carte blanche other than that fact that I wanted to use the 845 in there. It was built more to a concept than a budget. Silver custom trannies everywhere, yamamoto sockets, all silver wired, solid stainless power switch, all stainless and copper construction, dual merc. vapor power supplies, vintage oil caps, etc.
I currently have his 801-based preamp on loan, which he did for VSAC 2001. The 2A3 amp he did for that same show has been disassembled and no longer exists. He's in the middle of finishing up (?) a transformer-coupled all silver wired, DHT preamp for me centered around the AV20 DHT, but can also use the 10-family of tubes (801, etc.) All chokes/trannies/etc are amorphous-core Tribute custom pieces. It uses the silver-wired Bent Audio TX-102's as volume control. Again, I committed to this sight unseen or unheard. It's been a year and 4 months so far in the making and hopefully it will be as good as I expect it to be (likely much better I am sure).
I've had my amps opened up before and the build quality inside is as good or better than outside. The sound is astounding, truly... not just 'prideful owner' syndrome here. I wish I could build something as cool as these... but I took stock of my skills, time, and abilities, realized it would be years, if ever, before I could accomplish something like that, and decided to throw down for them instead.
I've heard most of the things he has done, including of course my amps, Terry Cain's 2A3 amps, Terry's 10/801 preamp and Josh's original VSAC 2001 preamp, the 75TL amps in a couple different forms, and some other stuff as well. I didn't hear the 212 amps (pictured) but I am assured they were great. These were the approx $60k commission he recently finished, for the same person as owns the 75TL amps.
He's booked up for at least the next couple years, with projects which include another AV20 preamp, a DHT-based phono preamp, a set of 75TL/GM70 amps, a 242/211 amp (Stereo), and some other things including a multi-way horn system with Goto drivers.
On top of all that, he's a very down to earth guy, super nice and easy going, and his whole family is as cool as he is too. I really like him a lot, and feel privileged to be able to own some of his art.
-Ed Sawyer
(the pic shows Josh on the left, and an acoustical treatment designer on the right. In the foreground are the 212/242 amps, and on the stands in the background are the 75TL amps. An additional pic of the 212 amps are here: http://www.webcom.com/wv/212amps.jpg )
As I guess the only resident owner of Electronluv stuff, I figured I would weigh in with some facts.
Everything Josh has done is custom, one-off deals. He has only ever duplicated two items and even those were not identical by a long shot. He doesnt' have anything 'stock', at least not at this point nor for the forseeable future.
the speakers and amps @ VSAC this year were not for sale, though he later did build a pair of amps using 242 and 212 around the chassis design of the GM100 amps. They are still working on speakers, and I doubt anything quite like those 4-way horns will ever be produced from him for sale (At least not in the near future.)
The amps that were on Ebay were the 75TL amps. They were up with an opening bid of $9500. If I Had the $ I would have bought them in a heartbeat. I have heard them in a couple different forms both at his house and in other locations. They had no bidders on Ebay. He later sold them to a client overseas for $35k, which was his asking price when he exhibited them @ CES.
I own the 45/845 amps (picture posted by MiKE, thanks.), which are one-of-a-kind, and were the 2nd pair of complete amps he had built. I bought them sight unseen or unheard, and we developed the concepts and tube choices (and iron choices, topology, etc.) as we went along. I pretty much gave him carte blanche other than that fact that I wanted to use the 845 in there. It was built more to a concept than a budget. Silver custom trannies everywhere, yamamoto sockets, all silver wired, solid stainless power switch, all stainless and copper construction, dual merc. vapor power supplies, vintage oil caps, etc.
I currently have his 801-based preamp on loan, which he did for VSAC 2001. The 2A3 amp he did for that same show has been disassembled and no longer exists. He's in the middle of finishing up (?) a transformer-coupled all silver wired, DHT preamp for me centered around the AV20 DHT, but can also use the 10-family of tubes (801, etc.) All chokes/trannies/etc are amorphous-core Tribute custom pieces. It uses the silver-wired Bent Audio TX-102's as volume control. Again, I committed to this sight unseen or unheard. It's been a year and 4 months so far in the making and hopefully it will be as good as I expect it to be (likely much better I am sure).
I've had my amps opened up before and the build quality inside is as good or better than outside. The sound is astounding, truly... not just 'prideful owner' syndrome here. I wish I could build something as cool as these... but I took stock of my skills, time, and abilities, realized it would be years, if ever, before I could accomplish something like that, and decided to throw down for them instead.
I've heard most of the things he has done, including of course my amps, Terry Cain's 2A3 amps, Terry's 10/801 preamp and Josh's original VSAC 2001 preamp, the 75TL amps in a couple different forms, and some other stuff as well. I didn't hear the 212 amps (pictured) but I am assured they were great. These were the approx $60k commission he recently finished, for the same person as owns the 75TL amps.
He's booked up for at least the next couple years, with projects which include another AV20 preamp, a DHT-based phono preamp, a set of 75TL/GM70 amps, a 242/211 amp (Stereo), and some other things including a multi-way horn system with Goto drivers.
On top of all that, he's a very down to earth guy, super nice and easy going, and his whole family is as cool as he is too. I really like him a lot, and feel privileged to be able to own some of his art.
-Ed Sawyer
(the pic shows Josh on the left, and an acoustical treatment designer on the right. In the foreground are the 212/242 amps, and on the stands in the background are the 75TL amps. An additional pic of the 212 amps are here: http://www.webcom.com/wv/212amps.jpg )
