grillebilly
Empty Head
As far as vintage receivers go I think the Onkyo TX #500 series bested all the other Phono sections I had. I kept all the MK II line. I liked the sound of the lower model 2500 more than the top tier CR Yamaha’s.
Your Amp
- Thread starter bobspets
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MisterDK
Addicted Member
Plinius SA-100 Mk III. 100 wpc of pure Class A goodness.
Nothing like a big class A to help heat the room in winter! Every time I think about retiring my Krell because it’s an amp-sucker, I think about winter time..
JohnPascali
New Member
Looking for a Local Repair shop for Yamaha CR-840 in Bergen county New Jersey
MisterDK
Addicted Member
Good luck repairing the 840.. I have a junk one here for spares but those special Yamaha IC’s that go bad - are no good in this one.
doctor fuse
Super Member
I am using tube separates now, but the humble NAD 3020 reignited my passion for hifi, a decade ago.
I still enjoy listening to it in the bedroom, with either a Thorens TD145, Technics SL-D2, Mission 775LC, Dual 1009SK2, or CEC BD-2000. Which means all types of drives - belt, direct drive, or idler wheel.
I really like the phono stage on this little amp. And it can really put out the volume!
I still enjoy listening to it in the bedroom, with either a Thorens TD145, Technics SL-D2, Mission 775LC, Dual 1009SK2, or CEC BD-2000. Which means all types of drives - belt, direct drive, or idler wheel.
I really like the phono stage on this little amp. And it can really put out the volume!
ODS123
Super Member
I think, nominally, most amps these days sound pretty much alike so long as they're engineered to be linear (most are - apart from flea-watt tube amps) and aren't driven to distortion. So matching amp to speakers to expected volume levels still requires at least a little bit of thought.
That said, I wouldn't buy ANY integrated amp (or pre-amp if going with separates. ..But why do that these days?) that lacks Treble, Bass, and Balance controls and a Mono switch. I find the tone control indispensable when listening to less than perfectly mic'd or recorded music. And the ability to listen in MONO is hugely helpful when listening to older stereo recordings where Stereo mixing wasn't very well implemented. For ex: some older Beatles recordings where the voices came from one speaker, and instruments from the other. To my ears, these songs are MUCH more enjoyable in mono.
Alas, there aren't many new integrated amps that have Treble/ Bass/ Balance.. and Mono. To my knowledge: McIntosh, Accuphase, Luxman, and Anthem. ..Many older NAD integrated amps had all of these features, but no longer.
That said, I wouldn't buy ANY integrated amp (or pre-amp if going with separates. ..But why do that these days?) that lacks Treble, Bass, and Balance controls and a Mono switch. I find the tone control indispensable when listening to less than perfectly mic'd or recorded music. And the ability to listen in MONO is hugely helpful when listening to older stereo recordings where Stereo mixing wasn't very well implemented. For ex: some older Beatles recordings where the voices came from one speaker, and instruments from the other. To my ears, these songs are MUCH more enjoyable in mono.
Alas, there aren't many new integrated amps that have Treble/ Bass/ Balance.. and Mono. To my knowledge: McIntosh, Accuphase, Luxman, and Anthem. ..Many older NAD integrated amps had all of these features, but no longer.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Was speaking about this the last week with a friend about newer preamps and how they are devoid of such simple basic controls.
Then here we go, won't matter that it's a $15,000 Preamp, cable rolling, speaker rolling, acoustic treatments in the thousands, thousands more for some other piece of gear, the "holy grail" which will cure all your room's shortcomings. Got another $7K to blow?
Sounds like I'm wishing for a time machine. Go back to 1975, and bring back a big honkin Sansui, or Mac system.
ODS123
Super Member
Manufacturer's of such gear will tell you something like "Putting a Bass/Treble/ Balance Control & Mono switch in the signal path will Audibly damage the signal - even if they are zero'd or if the "tone" defeat switch is engaged."
This a absolute nonsense IMHO. ..If a handful of signal breaks are audible than how on earth can sound go in one-end of a mixer board in a recording studio, pass through literally hundreds and hundreds of switches, pots, sliders, etc..(i.e., signal breaks) then come out the other end as music? ...And as improved music, no less - at least in the opinion of the recording engineer.
Certainly most, if not all, of audiophile approved recordings (Pink Floyd DSM, Steely Dana Aja, Norah Jones, etc..) were all made using mixing boards with hundreds of such breaks.
So to argue that a handful of breaks needed for Tone controls will audibly damage the signal is utterly disingenuious. The real reason? ..Easier/ cheaper to engineer/ manufacture. AND audiophiles (an often pretty gullible group, IMHO) will happily accept the narrative that "less is more" for the true audiophile.
doctor fuse
Super Member
Back in 1978, the NAD salesmen reportedly demonstrated the little amp, driving the extremely low impedance Linn Isobarik speakers. They have the high current to drive difficult speakers with aplomb. Great little budget amp.
Decibel_116
AK Subscriber
It is not nonsense at all. It is a scientific fact. The reason audio purists make statements like this is because they are all about preserving the purity of the recorded signal. Yes, all kinds and manner of distortions and effects are inserted in the signal path during the recording and production process. The signal is impacted (distorted) by level controls, signal breaks, connectors, cable, tone controls, and effects to arrive at the recorded sound the artist or engineer is looking for. These distortions are not considered destructive on the recording side. However, it is a completely different matter (and perspective) altogether when dealing with the reproduction side. In order to remain faithful to the original recorded signal during playback, distortions of any kind must be avoided - including the destructive nature of tone controls. On the playback side in the studio, you will not find any tone controls.
Tone controls (and associated switchgear) do absolutely degrade (distort) the audio signal - and audibly so. Like anything else in life, faithfullness to the recorded signal can be taken to the extreme and may not be practical (or even desirable) in all situations. In fact, I find some recording mixes to be rather flat sounding and need some kind of equalization in my listening environment for it to be tolerable. Most are fine as recorded. Personally, I prefer my preamp to have tone controls that can be switched out of the signal path entirely. Sure, the extra contact breaks in the circuit may cause some degradation. But, I like to have at least some small amount of bass and treble adjustability on tap for those recordings that really need it. I have been able to hear the difference between the tone controls at "0" and signal direct path with every preamp I have owned/used. Some less than others depending on the implementation. Since having that experience, I leave the tone controls out of the circuit unless the recording is so bad that I cannot stand to listen to it without some kind of compensation.
You cannot broad brush this topic with "easier/cheaper to engineer/manufacture" and the gullibility of audiophiles. Every situation is different. There are many other cost drivers that have more impact than a set of simple tone controls. The "no tone control" pure signal path products will appeal to a completely different customer than the fully featured preamp/integrated amp. As far as signal purity, less really is more - especially when applied to a preamp. Passive preamps offer the possibility of the least amount of signal degradation. Of far more importance to signal purity is the quality of parts used. High quality parts can make a huge difference in cost and audio quality. But, they are expensive (resistors, capacitors, connectors, casework, etc.). A simple design implemented with very high quality parts will cost more than a full-feature model with standard grade parts.
Some audiophiles assign a great deal of importance to remaining faithful to the recording (i.e. high fidelity). Others maybe not so much. Either way is not fine - a matter of personal preference. Personally, I want my system to reproduce the recorded signal as close as possible to the original. Then I can add some "icing" to it if I think it needs it. In reality, being able to reproduce the same sound the sound engineer was hearing during the recording process in my listening environment is probably an audiophile fantasy at best. Getting close is fun though.....
Cheers,
-D
doctor fuse
Super Member
I am not certain how much signal breaks like tone controls affect the sound in the real world (my balance control knob, however, is problematic enough I wish it wasn't there), but radio and recording studios have historically followed thorough maintenance schedules, like changing tubes in short periods of time (back when they were CHEAP), opening up consoles and cleaning all pots and switches, etc. Not to mention it is almost always very well made gear to begin with. I mean, the Beatles engineers would create devices like analog time shifting modules on demand! These people were not only technically adept, but creative geniuses!
ODS123
Super Member
Sorry, I remain quite unconvinced. ..Only in audio play-back will you find people who obsess over minimizing signal breaks. If a tone control, WHEN ZERO'd, is audibly damaging the signal, then it's a poorly implemented tone control. Thankfully, in most cases integrated amps with Tone Controls have a tone defeat switch to take it out of the circuit. Now are you suggesting that the few signal breaks necessitated by the Tone defeat are ALSO audibly damaging the signal?? ..Sorry, I don't believe it.
Can you hear signal breaks in your speaker cables? ..To anyone reading this, I'd suggest this following experiment. ..Get 20 ft. of lamp cord to use as temporary speaker cable (don't worry, you can go back to your pricey fancy cable later), hook up one speaker with a clean 10ft. length, then the other I suggest you cut into 5 or 10 pieces then splice it back to gather using wire-nuts. ..Hook to the other speaker. Push both speakers next to each other. ..Now, play a mono recording, and use your balance control to switch b/w the speakers. Hear a difference? ..nope. B/c signal breaks don't affect sound. IMHO.
Audiofreak71
Boerboelicious
If a system isn’t resolving enough of course you won’t hear a difference but if a system is resolving then you will indeed hear slight changes. But we’re not going to get into the cable discussion for the inevitable thread lock so I’ll leave it at that.
Audiofreak71
ODS123
Super Member
I did this WITH Vandy 3A Sigs and Bryston pre/ amp. ..It's not that.
