Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[marantzfan]

That has a pretty low efficiency for an Ewave. I think you'd be throwing away a bunch of the dynamic capability of the tweeter by padding it down that far. That line has a pretty good midrange though. It might sound great.

How about this:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-412

You could move up to a 12" with the Beta 12:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-408

I started from scratch on mine.

Ray

Out of curiousity, what is the difference between the regular drivers they have at PE and the "pro" drivers? Is there a reason that you chose pro-drivers?

 

[Clmrt]

I'll take a shot at that -

Woofers:

Pro stuff is usually meant for SPL uber alles. A little power in, a lot of sound out. Large drivers used for midrange applications to control directivity and allow for high dynamic range in varied locations.

Hi Fi stuff assumes indoor work, takes bass into consideration. A 10" woofer could be suited for good bass in moderately sized enclosures in smaller rooms, well damped for crossover work in the 2K region.

After you play with WinISD (free download) you can get an idea of what works in what box before you try it.

Tweeters:

Compression drivers are far more sensitive than most other types and allow for equalization in the passive network to make them flat. If the padding isn't too excessive (to match the woofer), you can use smaller amplifiers to achieve high SPLs. The horn or waveguide you use also affects the sound, and this particular waveguide is apparently well suited to the home crowd.

This project is centered around the horn. The crossover is a product of the guide and driver combination. The system configuration depends on the woofer you choose. One system used the JBL 2206, a high-SPL midbass/midrange driver with limited deep bass capability (50 or 60hz, I believe.) That system will need at least one sub to sound completely full range. I'm using the JBL 123A-1, which qualifies as a subwoofer with midrange capability. In this system, I am padding the tweeter down by ~17db, but the bass is deep and plentiful, if a bit thick. I need larger cabinets...

 

[RayW]

Out of curiousity, what is the difference between the regular drivers they have at PE and the "pro" drivers? Is there a reason that you chose pro-drivers?

Usually it's a tradeoff of efficiency vs. bottom end. The hifi type woofers that PE carries will have lower Fs (speaking in general terms, of course) and the prosound stuff will have higher efficiency and possibly higher power handling. Since the EWG can run with woofers up to 100dB efficiency or so I looked for a woofer with a high efficiency to go with it to get the "effortless dynamics" of a high sensitivity system and the capability to play with flea powered amps.

There's nothing that says you have to do that. You can pair the EWG with a lower efficiency woofer and have a great sounding speaker. You'll just be padding down the mid/tweeter a lot. It's just a slightly different direction. I didn't mean to imply there's only one way to go, just giving my take on that question.

Ray

 

[Bauhausler]

The other day a musician was over dropping off another incinerated amp for revival and he spotted my EWave project scattered around. He remarked that the ULA was about the size speaker that he needed for some application in his practice space. The LA woofer certainly isn't appropriate for what he has in mind, having power handling 1/5 that of the compression driver, but when I've worked out the ULA EWave project for AK it would be interesting to see what a high power pro woofer would work like in these cabs. Ports would undoubtedly be needed but that's no problem. Maybe the ultimate destination for this pair is in a practice studio.

 

[marantzfan]

Usually it's a tradeoff of efficiency vs. bottom end. The hifi type woofers that PE carries will have lower Fs (speaking in general terms, of course) and the prosound stuff will have higher efficiency and possibly higher power handling. Since the EWG can run with woofers up to 100dB efficiency or so I looked for a woofer with a high efficiency to go with it to get the "effortless dynamics" of a high sensitivity system and the capability to play with flea powered amps.

There's nothing that says you have to do that. You can pair the EWG with a lower efficiency woofer and have a great sounding speaker. You'll just be padding down the mid/tweeter a lot. It's just a slightly different direction. I didn't mean to imply there's only one way to go, just giving my take on that question.

Ray

Hmmm. Sounds like with this approach, I can build more stuff later.. Maybe some bottle head gear or something of the likes to power the E-Waves.

I think I like your idea Ray. :thmbsp:

 

[marantzfan]

I'll take a shot at that -

Woofers:

Pro stuff is usually meant for SPL uber alles. A little power in, a lot of sound out. Large drivers used for midrange applications to control directivity and allow for high dynamic range in varied locations.

Hi Fi stuff assumes indoor work, takes bass into consideration. A 10" woofer could be suited for good bass in moderately sized enclosures in smaller rooms, well damped for crossover work in the 2K region.

After you play with WinISD (free download) you can get an idea of what works in what box before you try it.

Tweeters:

Compression drivers are far more sensitive than most other types and allow for equalization in the passive network to make them flat. If the padding isn't too excessive (to match the woofer), you can use smaller amplifiers to achieve high SPLs. The horn or waveguide you use also affects the sound, and this particular waveguide is apparently well suited to the home crowd.

This project is centered around the horn. The crossover is a product of the guide and driver combination. The system configuration depends on the woofer you choose. One system used the JBL 2206, a high-SPL midbass/midrange driver with limited deep bass capability (50 or 60hz, I believe.) That system will need at least one sub to sound completely full range. I'm using the JBL 123A-1, which qualifies as a subwoofer with midrange capability. In this system, I am padding the tweeter down by ~17db, but the bass is deep and plentiful, if a bit thick. I need larger cabinets...

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that makes alot more sense now. I'll have to download that program.:yes:

 

[Kegger]

Hmmm. Sounds like with this approach, I can build more stuff later.. Maybe some bottle head gear or something of the likes to power the E-Waves.

I think I like your idea Ray. :thmbsp:

Or maybe even 1 of these,

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=163886

 

[marantzfan]

Or maybe even 1 of these,

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=163886

That might take me some time to digest, but it looks promising. Any chance that someone could post some sort of a summary near the front of the thread like Zilch did in this one?

 

[Clmrt]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that makes alot more sense now. I'll have to download that program.:yes:

I just hope it was right!

I've been tinkering and duplicating (mocking) what I see for about 10 years now. I think I understand it, but I don't have a true grasp of the math behind it all.

 

[TerryO]

Usually it's a tradeoff of efficiency vs. bottom end. The hifi type woofers that PE carries will have lower Fs (speaking in general terms, of course) and the prosound stuff will have higher efficiency and possibly higher power handling. Since the EWG can run with woofers up to 100dB efficiency or so I looked for a woofer with a high efficiency to go with it to get the "effortless dynamics" of a high sensitivity system and the capability to play with flea powered amps.

There's nothing that says you have to do that. You can pair the EWG with a lower efficiency woofer and have a great sounding speaker. You'll just be padding down the mid/tweeter a lot. It's just a slightly different direction. I didn't mean to imply there's only one way to go, just giving my take on that question.

Ray

Just to expand on what Ray has said the relative efficiency of the Woofer allows you to use some of the small, but great sounding amplifiers that are available as well as other "tricks" like Baffle Step Compensation without losing too much in the way of Dynamics. I'm sure that most members here understand this, but it doesn't hurt to repeat how the relative Efficency figures into what you can use for amplification in your system.
In a hypothetical speaker, lets say that a woofer is available in various sensitivities all into 8 ohms.

Woofer #1 is 85dB SPL/1meter/1watt

1watt= 85dB
2watts=88dB
4watts=91dB
8watts=94dB
16watts=97dB
32watts=100dB
64watts=103d
128watts=106dB

Woofer#2 is 89dB SPL/1meter/1watt

1watt=89dB
2watts=92dB
4watts=95dB
8watts=98db
16watts=101dB
32watts=104dB
64watts=107dB
128watts=110dB

Woofer#3 is 93dB SPL/1meter/1watt

1watt=93dB
2watts=96dB
4watts=99dB
8watts=102dB
16watts=105dB
32watts=108db
64watts=111dB
128watts=114dB

Woofer#4 is 97dB SPL/1meter/1watt

1watt=97dB
2watts=100dB
4watts=103dB
8watts=106dB
16watts=109dB
32watts=112dB
64watts=115dB
128watts=118dB

Woofer#5 is 101dB SPL/1meter/1watt

1watt=101dB
2watts=104dB
4watts=107dB
8watts=110dB
16watts=113dB
32watts=116dB
64watts=119dB
128watts=122dB

If you were considering a flea ("Spud") amp such as a Single Ended Triode using a 45 driver, you'd have about .75 watts available. An SET with 2A3's run about 3.5 watts and with 300B's you'd have about 8 watts. The popular "T" amps run around 5-10 watts and I believe an LM1875-based "GainClone" output about 22-25 watts.

My personal HH Scott 299 tube amp is actually good for about 14-18 (undistorted) watts, AFAIK. I don't listen to music at loud levels (to me, 90dB is loud), and I have a relatively small room in which I listen to Classical music. I would want decent undistorted dynamics with adequate headroom, so my ideal speaker would have the Efficiency of woofer #4 or 5, although I could certainly live with #3 without a lot of worry.

I hope that this is of some help, it certainly took me a while to integrate it into my approach to design.

Best Regards,
Terry Olson

 

[RayW]

Hmmm. Sounds like with this approach, I can build more stuff later.. Maybe some bottle head gear or something of the likes to power the E-Waves.

I think I like your idea Ray. :thmbsp:

Be careful, man! It's a slippery slope!

Kegger, I second the summary for the compactron amp. Wasn't Wiggy going to do that?

Ray

 

[Kegger]

I agree it should get done, I just haven't had the time to do it.

Not sure where Wiggy is these days, Him and Squid were gunna write up the tutorial
and publish it, so yah I was thinking that part was something I wasn't gunna be doing.

 

[dnewma04]

I wonder if someone should work up an optimized crossover for the Beta 12A. I could maybe get a group buy together with Pyle waveguides, Beta 12As, and the D220TIs. Work out an optimized crossover for the woofer/ewg combo and determine if PE can provide all the parts. This would all be pending AK approval, of course. And probably have a built in donation to the site. It's a cheap woofer that would be easy to get and sounds good. Maybe there is another option that might work better that still works with a low budget.

 

[marantzfan]

I wonder if someone should work up an optimized crossover for the Beta 12A. I could maybe get a group buy together with Pyle waveguides, Beta 12As, and the D220TIs. Work out an optimized crossover for the woofer/ewg combo and determine if PE can provide all the parts. This would all be pending AK approval, of course. And probably have a built in donation to the site. It's a cheap woofer that would be easy to get and sounds good. Maybe there is another option that might work better that still works with a low budget.

What about the Emminence Delta 10A? It looks awefully nice too and is even more efficient?

Either way, if that plan comes to fruition dnewma I would definately love to get in on it, this being my first speaker build project and all..:yes:

 

[Pio1980]

What's the lowest practical cross-over point with sufficient power margin for the 12" EW/Selenium driver and how efficient can it be "wide open" thru it's cross-over? I know these figs are in here somewhere but the numbers of speaker design are out of my area of experience and I am trying to catch on as best I can.
Still mulling this over as a special project.
TIA;
S.B.

 

[Zilch]

What about the Emminence Delta 10A? It looks awefully nice too and is even more efficient?

Just to be sure readers understand this, Eminence Delta-10A is a "Midrange Driver:"

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-412

You're building "Mid/high" boxes with those, or similar, and will need a sub, or several, to provide bass.

In pro SR, (Sound Reinforcement,) bass is 40 Hz, generally; the bottom octave is missing. Providing extended bass at the requisite SPLs in large spaces is possible, but difficult, and also difficult to manage. A pro sub conforms to different performance criteria than those more suited to home use, in smaller rooms.

Does "Mid/high" work at home? Sure. It's "Sub/satellite" separates we're talking here, in some respects a better approach than integrated 3-ways, in fact, and satellites don't have to be the dinky "theater in a box" speakers with which we are all familiar.

EconoWave is especially well suited to mating with high-efficiency woofers and midbass drivers such as are being discussed here. Look again to pro SR. Any tweeters there, in the conventional sense? Nope, it's compression drivers on horns/waveguides, virtually universally. E'Wave's sensitivity, fully HF compensated, is ~100 dB/1W. As Wayne pointed out earlier, there are few drivers that'll outpace it; a high-sensitivity mid/high system built using it can run on milliwatts for most home use.

So, we have two basic design approaches using E'Wave:

1) Combined with an extended-bass woofer to build full-range 2-way:

2) With a higher-efficiency midbass driver for use with subwoofer low-frequency augmentation:

OR, any intermediate combination in between.... :thmbsp:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584

 

[Zilch]

What's the lowest practical cross-over point with sufficient power margin for the 12" EW/Selenium driver and how efficient can it be "wide open" thru it's cross-over?

E'Wave's nominal crossover frequency is 1.6 khz. The actual acoustic crossover frequency varies with the response characteristics of the woofer mated with it, and the optimum lowpass filter for each.

E'Wave's sensitivity without attenuation is ~100 dB/1W.

 

[sailor]

Hi All,
I have followed this thread with growing interest from the very beginning and now with the return of a pair of speakers that were on loan to a friend, I intend to modify them to take the EWG.
They are Wayne's 2 Pi towers, which use the Eminence Alpha 10. I have made note of the relevant page number and post re: HP XO to use with woofers below 95dB, but at what frequency should I LP. These 10's are 93.8dB @ 200Hz and 94.2dB @ 500Hz.
The Eminence plot for this driver is reasonably smooth up to about 1K and then peaks at 2K by about 6dB.
The waveguide is available in my country but not the Selenium driver. I have access to B & C, Beyma, 18 Sound and P-Audio. Although all these are more expensive than the Selenium, by the time I have paid import duties, tax and freight, the price gap is reduced somewhat. So do I go with the Selenium which has all the XO parts worked out or one of the other units like B & C and maybe get better performance but then with the necessary compensation unknown :scratch2: Well unknown to me that is. Has anyone used a CD other than Selenium and with what results. If the sound is significantly improved then thats the way to go, otherwise I'll import.

 

[Zilch]

Hi, Sailor, and welcome!

I'm a big fan of towers, and if I'm reading the specs correctly, the 2-Pi tower is 16" wide, so E'Wave will easily fit, width-wise.

Several of us have worked with other compression drivers, BMS, primarily. In a sense, the Seleniums we're using here are "entry level," for obvious reasons ("Econo,") and I believe all of us would encourage builders to experiment with alternative drivers.

We have explored the Pi-Speakers HF compensation filter earlier in this thread, and while it is in large degree "generic," I believe Wayne would agree that incorporating it into a crossover optimized for any specific driver/waveguide combination, such as Jack has done for E'Wave, requires some custom design.

Wayne is well familiar with this project, as you may have gathered from his extensive participation in this thread. He is also well familiar with his own designs, and very likely, a variety of available alternative compression drivers, all of which is beyond the scope of our work here. Giiven his particular interest in E'Wave, I expect he would be willing to discuss your project with you privately, and we would certainly like to see your completed design posted here.... :thmbsp:

 

[Fran604g]

The other day a musician was over dropping off another incinerated amp for revival and he spotted my EWave project scattered around. He remarked that the ULA was about the size speaker that he needed for some application in his practice space. The LA woofer certainly isn't appropriate for what he has in mind, having power handling 1/5 that of the compression driver, but when I've worked out the ULA EWave project for AK it would be interesting to see what a high power pro woofer would work like in these cabs. Ports would undoubtedly be needed but that's no problem. Maybe the ultimate destination for this pair is in a practice studio.

Cool idea, I was wondering about the same approach because of the relative low efficiency/power handling of the ULA woofers...I don't have any way of testing any of the possible combinations (not to mention my lack of brains) so I'm watching intently on what you pros come up with.


I'm also gonna "do" a pair of AR4x's with my son at some point in the New Year

Thanks for all your work!