Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Zilch]

Cool idea, I was wondering about the same approach because of the relative low efficiency/power handling of the ULA woofers....

The problem is finding drivers to fit the stock opening. Not an issue, if you're willing to cut the cabs or fab adapters.

I'm also gonna "do" a pair of AR4x's with my son at some point in the New Year

The 6" square PT Waveguide will certainly fit, and seems on initial testing to work well with the E'Wave crossover.

8" square one, as with KLH-17, the cab is too shallow using Selenium drivers, looks like.... :thumbsdn:

 

[djnagle]

These might make a kick butt pair of Ewaves.....

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=195899

 

[marantzfan]

Just to be sure readers understand this, Eminence Delta-10A is a "Midrange Driver:"

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-412

You're building "Mid/high" boxes with those, or similar, and will need a sub, or several, to provide bass.

In pro SR, (Sound Reinforcement,) bass is 40 Hz, generally; the bottom octave is missing. Providing extended bass at the requisite SPLs in large spaces is possible, but difficult, and also difficult to manage. A pro sub conforms to different performance criteria than those more suited to home use, in smaller rooms.

Does "Mid/high" work at home? Sure. It's "Sub/satellite" separates we're talking here, in some respects a better approach than integrated 3-ways, in fact, and satellites don't have to be the dinky "theater in a box" speakers with which we are all familiar.

EconoWave is especially well suited to mating with high-efficiency midbass drivers such as are being discussed here. Look again to pro SR. Any tweeters there, in the conventional sense? Nope, it's compression drivers on horns/waveguides, virtually universally. E'Wave's sensitivity, fully HF compensated, is ~100 dB/1W. As Wayne pointed out earlier, there are few woofers or midbass drivers that'll outpace it; a mid/high system built with it can run on milliwatts for most home use.

So, we have two basic design approaches using E'Wave:

1) Combined with an extended-bass woofer to build full-range 2-way:

2) With a higher-efficiency midbass driver for use with subwoofer low-frequency augmentation:

OR, any intermediate combination in between.... :thmbsp:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584

Based upon all the recommended woofers, I noticed that none went below 55hz, so I assumed that regardless of which one I choose I would need to integrate a sub later.

 

[djnagle]

Hi Marantzfan, I made mine from the ESS AMT1C bottoms and don't need a sub. Keggers don't needs sub either. Cheers.

 

[jackgiff]

Based upon all the recommended woofers, I noticed that none went below 55hz, so I assumed that regardless of which one I choose I would need to integrate a sub later.

There are lots of woofers available that don't require subs to produce bass. Many are listed in this thread. You don't need to settle for a Pro Woofer and a Sub Woofer to make your EconoWave sound nice. I have several at home which don't need subwoofers. Try JBL's LE14A's or 2214H's for starters. Then keep looking til you find one that lights your fire.

Edit: By the way, I spent a couple hours this afternoon building crossovers. Four are for my home theater project with JBL LE14A's and LE111H's. The other pair are for a set of Indignias, but we were all shorted the iron core inductors on the group buy.

 

[Bauhausler]

Need for subs depends on a lot of things. I'm no bass freak but because my room is big and dead there's no 2-way so far that's done the job for me without some reinforcement on the bottom. Altec 19's came close, though.
I hope the Utility Large Advent project will yield an acceptable 'bookshelf' 2-way. Tools and hardware are now in hand. Awaiting Jack's xovr PCBs so I can assemble.

 

[Russellc]

We dont need no stink'in subs....

Hi Marantzfan, I made mine from the ESS AMT1C bottoms and don't need a sub. Keggers don't needs sub either. Cheers.

These definately dont need a sub...... Jbl 2235H :thmbsp:

Russellc

 

[von.ah]

The problem is finding drivers to fit the stock opening. Not an issue, if you're willing to cut the cabs or fab adapters.

The 6" square PT Waveguide will certainly fit, and seems on initial testing to work well with the E'Wave crossover.

8" square one, as with KLH-17, the cab is too shallow using Selenium drivers, looks like.... :thumbsdn:

What about bringing the frames of the drivers out with fabbed gaskets to give more room on the inside? You could also fab the rest of the baffle to be flush...

Just an idea to DIY it into boxes they really dont fit.
:scratch2:

 

[Clmrt]

These definately dont need a sub...... Jbl 2235H :thmbsp:

Russellc

Do you use the LE-14 XO with the 2235?

 

[Russellc]

Do you use the LE-14 XO with the 2235?

No, right now its the standard <95 db version. At Zilches suggestion, ( I've learned his suggestions are way better than just SWAGs, and its a good idea to try them) I'm going to try the bottom half of the 4430 monitor's crossover. Its the same driver, in the same sized box, tuned the same (with one Zilch plug) but is around 1000 hz if I remember right. I've got most of the parts stowed away somewhere here with a set of 2344A horns I'm going to try with this box and driver, replicating the 4430.

Right now, this thing sounds so good I'm not interested in changing anything. I would say the same about this same setup with the >95 db crossover and the JBL 2225H drivers, with all 4 ports open. Not as much deep bass, but the slam of drums/rimshots is incredible!

Russellc

 

[dnewma04]

You guys just don't get subwoofers.

All mentioned "NEED" subs.

 

[Zilch]

Oh, I GET it in the sense of Geddes's (and Toole's and others') teachings, but I'm not about to advocate giving up bass response in two-way mains, loading the room with 3 - 5 subs, and then figuring out how to balance them optimally, as a preferred alternative.... :tongue:

 

[marantzfan]

Whatever I build, I want it to be efficient enough to run off flea powered amps so I'm pretty sure I'll have to give up those last few octaves. With that said, why not look for a woofer that does everything else well and later integrate a pair of subs (which I could also build :scratch2).

I like where this is going. BTW, I got my crossover boards today in the mail, they look great!:thmbsp:

 

[dnewma04]

Oh, I GET it in the sense of Geddes's (and Toole's and others') teachings, but I'm not about to advocate giving up bass response in two-way mains, loading the room with 3 - 5 subs, and then figuring out how to balance them optimally as a preferred alternative.... :tongue:

Wuss.

 

[Paratima]

Wuss.

Praised by faint damns. :lmao:

 

[Pio1980]

I know I will have go with some sort of ported design to get efficiency with whatever low-end extension is possible for a well-compromised 2-way cab. It just seems to me from the peanut gallery that the E-W concept is wasted on an inefficient sealed A-S woof cab. Plenty of pretty good direct radiator mid-tweets that would do that justice without having to dial them waay down. What is about the best one can do all aound specifically for lo-end & efficiency real-world (not too exotic) driver/ported cab choice combo for the 12" horn & Sel' driver as a stand-alone 2-way?
S.B.

 

[Zilch]

Wuss.

http://www.mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

I know I will have go with some sort of ported design to get efficiency with whatever low-end extension is possible for a well-compromised 2-way cab. It just seems to me from the peanut gallery that the E-W concept is wasted on an inefficient sealed A-S woof cab.

I have no philosophical conflict with attenuating the HF to whatever level is required for balancing with any LF. There are tradeoffs inherent in arriving at an optimum compromise, and there are advantages to AS and other lower efficiency approaches to LF which some builders might find desirable. We have also discussed means of obtaining better LF performance from some higher-efficiency LF solutions.

Anyone who loses sleep over some perceived "inelegance" in attenuating the E'Wave HF might well consider passive biamping and fret over potentially having to use a bigger amp on the LF, instead. There are real issues worthy of attention here; I'm afraid I just can't get all worked up over imaginary ones.

Plenty of pretty good direct radiator mid-tweets that would do that justice without having to dial them waay down.

If you believe that, you've missed most of what E'Wave is about. High sensitivity is by far the least of it.

What is about the best one can do all aound specifically for lo-end & efficiency real-world (not too exotic) driver/ported cab choice combo for the 12" horn & Sel' driver as a stand-alone 2-way?

"Best" is for you to define, according to your own desires and preferences. By example of their completed projects, E'Wavers have established a workable range for your consideraton, though none have yet built to either extreme.... :thmbsp:

 

[dnewma04]

Controlled and better yet, constant directivity is key here.

 

[Pio1980]

Fair enuff & thnx for responses.
There is such a lot of info here, much referring to specific drivers and pro speakers with which I are not familiar. I lost any interest in pro PA for home listening in '76 after hearing the DQ-10s. I think I'm just over my head here on specific design spex in general anyway. Perhaps the best start will be a basic single ensemble outboard on one of the CS-300 cabs being driven by a couple of different mono lo-powered reciever amps to decide what it offers and whether it needs persuit as a secondary higher-efficency experimental stereo system. I don't think in my wildest dreams I'm going to come up with a better primary system overall than the present main direct-radiator ported system or the back-up DQ-20i, so I'm not headed there.
S.B.

 

[Russellc]

Fair enuff & thnx for responses.
There is such a lot of info here, much referring to specific drivers and pro speakers with which I are not familiar. I lost any interest in pro PA for home listening in '76 after hearing the DQ-10s. I think I'm just over my head here on specific design spex in general anyway. Perhaps the best start will be a basic single ensemble outboard on one of the CS-300 cabs being driven by a couple of different mono lo-powered reciever amps to decide what it offers and whether it needs persuit as a secondary higher-efficency experimental stereo system. I don't think in my wildest dreams I'm going to come up with a better primary system overall than the present main direct-radiator ported system or the back-up DQ-20i, so I'm not headed there.
S.B.

Things have moved along considerably since 1976. Not to derate you love of DQ- 10, 20 or whatever but a good econowave would surprise you to say the least.:yes: I've heard the DQs back in the day.

Russellc

russellc