• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

The D210Ti has been there at ca $30 per for a while, the D220Ti at ca $44 per, OTOH, hasn't been on open deep-discount for a while AFAIK. I don't know what/where the PODRCQ (Point-Of-Diminishing-Returns-Cost-Quotient) would be considered to be by the experts hereabouts relative to one or the other of these two drivers plus the cost of the JBL WGs and/or the on-sale 18 Sound XD 120 at $20 w/WG per, so I can't say there is ca $14 or better of relative improvement to be had between one and the other Selenium or the XD 120 complete at the bargain $20 per plus shipping.
You experts please, what say you, where is the relative PODRCQ between them? Is the D220Ti plus the largest budget JBL WG the biggest bang for the bux qualitywise of the 3 choices?

S.B.

P.S. We see that the XD-120 wants a higher cross-over point than the others noted, so they aren't directly equivalent to the Selenium+JBL WG alternatives. Still at $20 complete and a useful sized potential replacement for smaller boxes, hmmm---.

I am certainly not an expert, but I do have 4 1/2 completed EconoWave projects playing at home, with at least two more underway. I bought 8 each D220Ti's not long ago for my home theater project as well as another pair which will go into Altec Seville cabinets soon. I also shipped one pair of these to Zilch. Recently I purchased 6 each D210Ti's from PE just because I wanted some spares to have for converting other peoples speakers to EconoWave. Plus it seemed that PE was winding down distribution of the D210Ti.

I have not heard the 18 Sound XD-120, so cannot judge it's worth. Probably the biggest value part of the EconoWave is the JBL waveguides which are not your average "horn." The 18 Sound unit will probably need some more testing and verification before it can dethrone the JBL/Selenium combination in being EconoWaveguide. Both Seleniums are worthy of building EconoWaves, and I prefer the D220Ti for my own use, but would not feel bad at all about using the D210Ti as well. In fact one of my operational projects uses the D210Ti, the pair in EV Baronet clones along with JBL LE10H woofers documented somewhere in this thread. Good luck finding them.

All threads seem to generate a lot of posts that are just social in nature, and this one is no exception. And there is no way to really control that. But we are all learning as we go, and that is the name of the game, isn't it? It is still a GREAT read, from beginning to end.

Edit: Do you think we could get Geddes to test the XD-120?
 
I capitulate. You may cease firing. I certainly acknowledge and applaud the social value!

It was, as my title may have imparted, a "suggestion". :D
 
after looking through the list of econowave completed projects, it appears that most folks are using a traditional forward firing setup. parham, and later geddes as well as many others have suggested that the listening sweet spot can be widened by aiming the speakers to a point in front of a centrally located listener (the traditional sweet spot).

the zilchster brought to our attention jbl's use of asymmetrical horns that achieved a wide sweet spot by radiating more power to the listener sitting on the opposite side of the room, while radiating less power directly forward to the person sitting in front of the speaker. several reviews, including a couple really good ones linked over to the lansing heritage forum, as well as mr. zilchster's own reports are that the effect worked well.

since the benefits of having a wide sweet spot are numerous and include allowing multiple people in the same room to share the full econowave experience at the same time to not needing a center channel in order to locate sound accurately on the center of the screen for home theater, i have put together a few drawings that attempt to provide a setup/understanding guide for folks who might not understand how this works.

we have previously identified three requirements for good imaging. the sound from each speaker must arrive with the same:
1. frequency response
2. spl
3. time arrival

true controlled directivity horns such as the econowave do a pretty good job of minimizing reflections and providing a nice consistent frequency response off-axis from about 1khz up (the frequencies where imaging cues are particularly important) so go a long way toward achieving #1.

small differences in time arrival between the two speakers for a listener who is sitting off-axis may not be an issue because of the haas effect--the effect where sounds that arrive within about 15ms are combined by our brains into a single sound if they are the same in frequency response and to a lesser extent spl.

with the two other effects considered, the imaging game comes down to having the sound from the controlled directivity horns arrive at all listeners at the same spl.

this first diagram shows the radiated sound power from two forward firing econowaves. each oval represents declining sound power and it can be seen that it falls faster off-axis than on-axis.

listener a, the one centrally located, will have equal sound power arriving from each speaker and thus good imaging. listener b however receives a higher level of sound power from the speaker on the right (the one located in front of him). the blue arrow shows that sound power will fall before reaching listener b. thus listener b will not share in econowave's imaging potential.
attachment.php


in the second picture, the speakers are toed in at about 45 degrees. the sound power for listener a and listener b is almost identical, so both listeners will be able to share the full econowave imaging potential.
attachment.php


in the third picture, the speakers are moved a little bit closer to the listeners and toed-in further in order to maximize the sweet spot. the dotted black represents the region where listeners will all receive about identical spl and so will have great imaging. this setup is conceptually close to what jbl did with its asymmetric horns.
attachment.php


finally, another strategy that can be employed in the placement of econowaves can solve situations where speakers must be placed in non-symmetric locations or with a goal in mind of moving the sweet spot around the room to accomodate as many listeners as possible.
attachment.php


the important thing to know is that this strategy only works for speakers, such as the econowave, that have off-axis sound that is spectrally similar to the on-axis sound. with a little bit of experimentation in placement, the sweet spot can be widened or, with asymmetric placement of the speakers, the sweet spot can even be moved forward and backward in the room.

these drawings are not to scale and are meant only to serve as inspiration for experimentation in placement.
 

Attachments

  • cd_two_speakers_forward.JPG
    cd_two_speakers_forward.JPG
    25.5 KB · Views: 289
  • cd_two_speakers_45degrees.JPG
    cd_two_speakers_45degrees.JPG
    23.8 KB · Views: 287
  • cd_two_speakers_wide_sweet_spot.JPG
    cd_two_speakers_wide_sweet_spot.JPG
    26 KB · Views: 292
  • cd_two_speakers_asymmetic_placement.JPG
    cd_two_speakers_asymmetic_placement.JPG
    23 KB · Views: 288
Thank you for your illustrations and explanation, Publius!

That should certainly make the concept clear for E'Wavers to try and enjoy, now.... :thmbsp:
 
It does definatly work, I've been running mine like that after the first setup and trial. :thmbsp:
 
Um. Oh. Wow.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :scratch2:

HOM. CD. DI. Oblate Spheriodals. Good grief! I think I need a lie-down. To be continued next year.

HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone at AK and especially those who contributed to the amazing Econo-Waveguide! :beerchug:
 
FWIW, here's the lowpass a couple of us are using with closed-box JBL 123A(-x), derived from the very early work Mxlews and I did with C36:

attachment.php

I'll be reconfirming this with Wiredbecker's E'Waves here soon.

I believe everyone who's used 123As in this alignment has found them to be a little boomy.

[We've also decided we like it like that.... ;) ]


Edit: We stuffed 'em pretty good w/R-21 fiberglass:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=132560#post132560



I'm wondering what the XO frequency is on that.

1200?

*I'm going to try to find out here shortly....

Okay...the 6ohm / 30mf is an impedance EQ...or not. I get 20uf over 5.5ohms if I calculate it...

2nd order LR @ 800?

No - 2nd order Butterworth at 1K...
 
I was setting here bored after the new year so I thought I'd check PE and they have the I-core inductors in.:banana: My order is placed and I shoud be EconoWave'n next week if all goes well.

I'll report back when the order gets here.
 
Here are a few pics of what I'm going to be working with when the parts come in next week for my EconoWave crossovers.

Moddified ALtec Madrid 872B's

000_0089.jpg


000_0088.jpg



If these trun out to be as good as all the others I'm going to consider finding someone to cut new baffles so the horn is in the cab rather than on the cab. Any suggestions(ie porting.....) the experts here have for this set up will be appreciated.
 
What woofer is in there?

I was told it's a woofer from a Model 14 when I bought it and the speaker guy that did the work(added the tweeter and reconed the woofer) confirmed it to be a woofer from an Altec Model 14 that he put in there.
 
I was told it's a woofer from a Model 14 when I bought it and the speaker guy that did the work(added the tweeter and reconed the woofer) confirmed it to be a woofer from an Altec Model 14 that he put in there.
There's a port in M14, no? Perhaps someone can tell us the port dimensions.... :dunno:
 
Back
Top Bottom