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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

publius said:
...
here is a dummies guide to demodulating rings:
http://www.eighteensound.com/staticContent/technologies/products/18_Sound_DDR.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. You may know that Wayne Parham offers the JBL 2226 15" as an option for his Four Pi speaker and he says the primary improvement over the standard Eminence Omega 15 is less distortion due to the shorting ring.

I have not been able to A/B his system, but Wayne says that paying the premium is worthwhile.

Since we're so sensitive to distortion in the mid range, I think your inquiry is a good idea. Whether or not you or I will drive the speakers to audible levels of distortion is a good question too.
 
Thanks Kegger!

Kegger said:
If anyone does order anything from Loudspeakers Plus, like the XD-120's.

Might I suggest getting a pair of the P-Audio PHT-416 driver/horn combo, ($7.99 ea)
http://www.paudiothailand.com/pdf/products/PHT-416.pdf
They are another very nice performing driver, love the vocals on these things!

Edit: New pic for Skywave!
Click to expand...

Love that pic and all it implies.
:)
The PHT-416 looks interesting. I might order some. However I am saving money for those mega-horns you got me obsessed with a few pages back.
 
I don't have any info on the Model 14 woofer. The rectangular vent on that speaker is 2"x4" on a true 3/4" particle board. Rex' woofer looks nice and that size cabinet does look to be about the same as or maybe a tad smaller than the Model 14 cabinet.
 
skywave-rider said:
Love that pic and all it implies.
:)
The PHT-416 looks interesting. I might order some. However I am saving money for those mega-horns you got me obsessed with a few pages back.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm starting to develope a mild case of "Mega Horn Mania" myself....
what next, "Non Econo Wave Mega Horns"? I say bring it on! As good as Econowave is, I'm ready for something beyond it....:scratch2:

Russellc
 
zilch, thanks for pointing out the second chart. by my comment, i didn't mean to imply to the driver would turn to poop at anything over 90 db. 106db at 1% distortion (-40db) is probably good enough for most folks in the home setting. also, the le14h-3 is one of the flattest measuring large drivers that i have seen. jbl research demonstrates that flat frequency response correlates well with listener preferences. further, the driver models very much like the 2235h in lower end response (nice big low end with a gradual rolloff). frequency extension is another thing jbl has found to correlate well with subjective listening scores. for econowavers not using subwoofers, the le14h-3 and the 2235h both appear to be fantastic choices, with the former working better in a little smaller enclosure while the latter has a little better efficiency and marginally higher max spl capability. i know these are two of your favorite picks for under econowave and i am slowly learning why (or is it that i am learning quickly but there is just so much to learn?).

dnewma04, the 15tbx100 in a 3 cu ft /35hz enclosure would have an extended bass shelf. greg timbers suggests that it is best to avoid this. he recommends a smooth, gradual rolloff "like a banana" (his words). the reason for his suggests is that when the speakers are placed in a room, the bass enhancement coming from the room is also a gradual rise as frequency declines and so the two together make for a smooth arc in frequency response. that said, for practical purposes on most music your design suggestion would probably be fine since there is not much music down below 35hz or so. as you say though, the use of subwoofers takes a lot of the load off of the mains and so dramatically increases the number of driver choices for project econowave.

skywave rider, i know that wayne prefers the jbl 2226h over the eminence omega pro 15 in his 4pi. the two drivers seem to model more or less similarly and have frequency response that is relatively flat, yet wayne has mentioned on several occasions that the 2226h "just sounds better". i did not know that he attributed some of the better sound quality to the shorting ring and the lower distortion it provides. thanks for the links.
 
publius said:
zilch, thanks for pointing out the second chart. by my comment, i didn't mean to imply to the driver would turn to poop at anything over 90 db. 106db at 1% distortion (-40db) is probably good enough for most folks in the home setting. also, the le14h-3 is one of the flattest measuring large drivers that i have seen. jbl research demonstrates that flat frequency response correlates well with listener preferences. further, the driver models very much like the 2235h in lower end response (nice big low end with a gradual rolloff). frequency extension is another thing jbl has found to correlate well with subjective listening scores. for econowavers not using subwoofers, the le14h-3 and the 2235h both appear to be fantastic choices, with the former working better in a little smaller enclosure while the latter has a little better efficiency and marginally higher max spl capability. i know these are two of your favorite picks for under econowave and i am slowly learning why (or is it that i am learning quickly but there is just so much to learn?).

dnewma04, the 15tbx100 in a 3 cu ft /35hz enclosure would have an extended bass shelf. greg timbers suggests that it is best to avoid this. he recommends a smooth, gradual rolloff "like a banana" (his words). the reason for his suggests is that when the speakers are placed in a room, the bass enhancement coming from the room is also a gradual rise as frequency declines and so the two together make for a smooth arc in frequency response. that said, for practical purposes on most music your design suggestion would probably be fine since there is not much music down below 35hz or so. as you say though, the use of subwoofers takes a lot of the load off of the mains and so dramatically increases the number of driver choices for project econowave.

skywave rider, i know that wayne prefers the jbl 2226h over the eminence omega pro 15 in his 4pi. the two drivers seem to model more or less similarly and have frequency response that is relatively flat, yet wayne has mentioned on several occasions that the 2226h "just sounds better". i did not know that he attributed some of the better sound quality to the shorting ring and the lower distortion it provides. thanks for the links.
Click to expand...

In my conversations with Wayne, he seemed to think the way JBL implimented their shorting ring did the trick. Some of the top of the line Eminence were using a shorting ring, but that implimentation wasnt as good as JBL's way, as far as distortion reduction.

Since I am using the 2235H in my Econowave, I can attest it is a killer in this application, perhaps one of the best available. That said, I prefer the larger bass drivers. A-7s, speakers like Wayne PI models, etc.Also, Dont forget the 2225H, which is often overlooked in this application. In the 4507/4647 ( 5 cu ft ) box @ 40 hz, it is just as amazing.
The 2225H can be found cheap, and if dead it is worth noting if you havent already, that it is motor/magnet identical to the 2235H making a recone to this driver a choice.

Russellc
 
Rex Everything said:
It looks like this woofer was never sold as a seperate component. It's model number is 50-03-034633-01. It looks like it was also used in the 9842 studio moitors and some of the Model 15's.

Not sure if this will help or not.

Edit: This is probably not any help either but the original part number is RCA34633. I'm not finding any info though.
Click to expand...

We need PE's woofer tester, would be really nice for these Ewave mysteries! I've got to get the DEQ 2496, mic, and cx 3400 before that.....

Russellc
 
TnT2 said:
I don't have any info on the Model 14 woofer. The rectangular vent on that speaker is 2"x4" on a true 3/4" particle board. Rex' woofer looks nice and that size cabinet does look to be about the same as or maybe a tad smaller than the Model 14 cabinet.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the port dimenssions TnT2:thmbsp:

Hopefully it will give Zlich the info he was looking for so he can help the n00b out. :D
 
We still need the Model 15 port dimensions for comparison.

I THINK we're going to end up measuring and tweaking duct lengths to work this out, and WT3 would certainly make that task easier, yes.... :yes:
 
Zilch said:
We still need the Model 15 port dimensions for comparison.

I THINK we're going to end up measuring and tweaking duct lengths to work this out, and WT3 would certainly make that task easier, yes.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Would it be better to get the 9842 port dimenssions as from my reading they only put this woofer in the later Model 15 runs?
 
Rex Everything said:
Would it be better to get the 9842 port dimenssions as from my reading they only put this woofer in the later Model 15 runs?
Click to expand...
That'd help, too, of course.

The Altec tunings may not be optimum, either, but they'll get us a starting point. Any reference in the literature to the tuning frequency of any of these products, too.... :yes:


Duffinator said:
There clearly is no end to this madness! Have fun with your project. :thmbsp:
Click to expand...
Dennis just posted how he is done with his Imperials in another thread..

We're gonna rock his world in about another week here.... :tongue:
 
I'm just posting here because for some reason I got un-subscribed to this thread. Now I have about 235 posts to read!
 
publius said:
dnewma04, the 15tbx100 in a 3 cu ft /35hz enclosure would have an extended bass shelf. greg timbers suggests that it is best to avoid this. he recommends a smooth, gradual rolloff "like a banana" (his words).
Click to expand...

That name is vaguely familiar to me but I can't say I recall who that is. However, David Newman recommends an EBS alignment often because it's the ported enclosure type that he's found best correlates with his preference for a low Q, sealed box sound. This is of course, only used in the absence of subwoofers or used within the design of the subwoofers themselves.

the reason for his suggests is that when the speakers are placed in a room, the bass enhancement coming from the room is also a gradual rise as frequency declines and so the two together make for a smooth arc in frequency response. that said, for practical purposes on most music your design suggestion would probably be fine since there is not much music down below 35hz or so. as you say though, the use of subwoofers takes a lot of the load off of the mains and so dramatically increases the number of driver choices for project econowave.
Click to expand...

I've also had good luck with a ported box tuned just a little lower than the WinISDs and BB6Ps of the world recommend giving the "banana" curve that Mr. Timbers recommends. I've found it to be a good compromise. Still, multiple subs is one of the best and easiest methods to get superior bass performance. The 2-way system with 25-30hz extension is nice for simplicity.
 
publius said:
i couldn't find this before when the eng90's came up, but i happened upon it today: https://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1662#p4949
Click to expand...
DDS horns have always had a "home made" character to them, but I certainly don't have any of them that bad.

publius said:
john janowitz, callsign stryke, ordered some for a project he was working on. quality was too poor to proceed.
Click to expand...
Those guys seem somewhat unclear on the concept of HF comp, and the assertions regarding directivity of that 15" woofer there are dubious, though I suppose all of that is inconsequential if you're using an exponential horn.... ;)
 
Kegger said:
The XD-120 sure is a bargain at $20.00 each for a horn an driver, tough to beat!

The more I play with them the more they grow on me, I would have no problem in
endorsing them, and Skywave has shown they work just fine on the Econo Xover.

The Econo Xover point is just fine for them, I'm actually crossing over little lower!:eek:

Being there a smaller guide they do fit more of the smaller baffle speakers as well. :thmbsp:
(Heck at $20.00 a pop who cares if they get replaced, great drivers to "play" with)

Not advocating one is better then the other, just for the price of admission XD-120
is a worthy contender.
Click to expand...

My son and I are gonna try this combo with the AR4x's. One has an intact "older" version woof, the other needs to be re-foamed.

AND, it just occured to me that I have a pair of Altec Lansing 604-8K xovers doing nothing, so we're gonna see how this combo sounds, these xovers have a lot of variability with shelving and EQ, so we have a lot of latitude to work with...:)

They are centered at 1500Hz and have an 18dB slope for the HF and 12dB for LF...
 
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