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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Ok, don't kill me. :D

What about the possibility of using multiple drivers for the LF section? It seems to me that smaller drivers will have a better chance of playing competently into the crossover region then larger ones. What about using, say, two 8" woofers instead of one 12"? Also, would there have to be major modifications to the crossover to accomodate this change?
 
How about 12 5" drivers? :D

econowave1.jpg


On first iteration I used the standard <95 crossover. I hadn't really figured the sensitivity gains, IOW I didn't think it through and guessed wrong. I have to run the tweeter wide open in that config to get anything approaching balance. I need to rebuild with the >95 XO, just haven't had time. I need to do some tuning on the low pass as there is way too much going on at the XO point. These are actually mids, after all. As a line array they do have pretty good bass but I have to tweak out the XO and build the other one to really get a read on them.

Ray
 
marantzfan said:
What about the possibility of using multiple drivers for the LF section? It seems to me that smaller drivers will have a better chance of playing competently into the crossover region then larger ones. What about using, say, two 8" woofers instead of one 12"? Also, would there have to be major modifications to the crossover to accomodate this change?
Click to expand...
No problem, you do the "0.5" thing, and the two woofers only play LF simultaneously. You do NOT want both playing the mids.... :nono:
 
Russellc said:
I knew you were going to dig those, I still have the smile everytime I fire them up. Did you take pics along the way?

Russellc
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Yea man you were right on target saying Id like them:yes:. Heres a few of them, I always try to take a few pics so I have something to fall back on if I screw something up. i have most of them except for the ones taken at the shop of the pieces cut, they just didnt turn out because of the lighting. These should last forever as i have more glue, corner braces, seam braces, side braces, stainless steel nails and stainless screws in it to build a house. I got lucky and it they went together like a jig saw puzzle with no problems at all other than having to come back and chisel out some of the seam braces to make room for the ports. Stained twice, then four tung oils applications and they look great. My son in law just left and didnt believe I made them. Black grills are on the way next because I forgot to order the cloth.
 

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marantzfan said:
Ok, don't kill me. :D

What about the possibility of using multiple drivers for the LF section? It seems to me that smaller drivers will have a better chance of playing competently into the crossover region then larger ones. What about using, say, two 8" woofers instead of one 12"? Also, would there have to be major modifications to the crossover to accomodate this change?
Click to expand...

I use mine with a single 8" driver. Infinity Beta 8's and to me they sound better than the 12" from my HPM-100's, plus the package is pretty compact. The Beta 8 only requires .6ft3 with a 2" port 6" long tuned to 40hz.
 
Wayne Parham said:
Two-way speakers are nice because they're simple. But three-way speakers have certain advantages.
[snip]
There are several advantages they offer, from extending the uniform directivity control way down in frequency to reducing IMD to smoothing the upper modal region by overlapping the mids and the woofers.
Click to expand...

I have built a two-way with JBL 2226 and B&C DE250 + CD horn and Martinelli horn (and I have heard a still better one (IMO) at my friend's place, with 2226 + Great Plains 399). In any case, I like mine. I have a mega-version in my basement using JBL 2441+CD horn for 800hz and up, below that a Altec 515 (trying JBL LE15B) in a huge backloading horn that loads about 35-300hz. I don't know how directionality measures in the range covered by the BLH, but subjectively, it's like big-as-life sound that is good ANYWHERE in a large room.

What interests me most about going to a 3-way is something you don't mention above, namely the dynamics that the horn-loading is providing for HF in the 2-ways on this thread, and which I have top and bottom (but not so much in the middle) in my BLH + compression driver. The motivation for me to go to a three-way would be to get a horn to cover say 100-800 (and maybe use the BLH as a front-loading horn with a chamber over the driver, or some other solution).

JBL publishes the dynamic compression specs for their woofers, and at the relatively light levels I'm using the 2226, I'm probably not exceeding 0.7db compression. I think that's something I like a LOT about that driver. But there is a whole 'nother league of dynamics available through horn-loading the mids and mid-bass, and bass if possible. I would be very interested to hear how dynamics and mid-horns factor in to the difference in the multi-way PI speakers. Maybe proper loading for CD gets you to the improved dynamics too.
 
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hhibrownsbac said:
Yea man you were right on target saying Id like them:yes:. Heres a few of them, I always try to take a few pics so I have something to fall back on if I screw something up. i have most of them except for the ones taken at the shop of the pieces cut, they just didnt turn out because of the lighting. These should last forever as i have more glue, corner braces, seam braces, side braces, stainless steel nails and stainless screws in it to build a house. I got lucky and it they went together like a jig saw puzzle with no problems at all other than having to come back and chisel out some of the seam braces to make room for the ports. Stained twice, then four tung oils applications and they look great. My son in law just left and didnt believe I made them. Black grills are on the way next because I forgot to order the cloth.
Click to expand...

Very nice! How did you create that "bullnose" effect on the front edges? Again, super nice job! :thmbsp:

Russellc
 
marantzfan said:
Thanks for the quick answer, only, what is the "0.5" thing....:scratch2:
Click to expand...
You put an appropriately large-value inductor in series with the second woofer, and it only kicks in below, say, 200 Hz.

Use the ERSE Super-Q type to keep the insertion loss low via their low DCR.... :yes:


publius said:
340 pages?!?! this is out of control. i'm only current to 283. oh well, back to trying to get caught up.
Click to expand...
Yeah, pages just fly by here when we're havin' this much fun! :thmbsp:
 
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Zilch said:
You put an appropriately large-value inductor in series with the second woofer, and it only kicks in below, say, 200 Hz.

Use the ERSE Hi-Q type to keep the insertion loss low via their low DCR.... :yes:


Yeah, pages just fly by here when we're havin' this much fun! :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

Is the value of the inductor based upon some driver specific thiele small paramater? If not, which value is appropriate?
 
marantzfan said:
Is the value of the inductor based upon some driver specific thiele small paramater? If not, which value is appropriate?
Click to expand...
Look in the Low Pass filter chart in the PE catalog.

For 8 Ohms, I see the 10 mH one has a lower price than others near that, so that's the one I'd be buying.

Yeah, they're not cheap.... :pity:
 
Wayne Parham said:
....If there is no resistance in the circuit, the resonant peak will be very high and the bandwidth of the peak will be narrow. Adding resistance to the circuit reduces the amplitude of the peak, but widens the frequency range of the peak. This is called damping.

....The way I do it is to slightly underdamp the splitter filter. This lifts the region right around the crossover frequency, just enough to get the first octave or so flat, up to mass rolloff.
Click to expand...

Kind of you, Wayne, thanks.

Curious to know the frequency you find quarter wave modes in the H290 horn? I've been playing around with that connected to various drivers -- though waiting on DE250s -- and find it pleasing. I can't say I heard issues in the lower end of its response crossed over at about 1300Hz.
 
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H290

From it's length, you would expect a quarter-wave mode around 500Hz. I wouldn't use an H290 below 1kHz though. Some CD horns (waveguides) have ripple all the way up through the half-wavelength mode, but others are much more smooth. You can see from the measurements, the H290 is very smooth through its passband. I crossover between 1.3kHz and 1.6kHz, so the horn is never used below 1/2λ. Directivity matches nicely with the midwoofer too.

 
Econo-Wave Guide + JBL 2205J Variation

As the weather gets warmer and the air gets more humid, I want a pair of speakers to leave in the garage for use there and in the backyard. Not worried about the JBL 3677 cabinet, EWG or compression driver, but don't want to be mean to a near-new pair of JBL 2226. So I replaced the 2226 with a pair of JBL 2205J that have already been abused somewhat in their PA life. Someone thought it would be a good idea to spray-paint the cabinets they were in -- WITHOUT COVERING THE CONES. Or maybe they thought a nice deep black on the cones would look better than the fading-to-lighter-gray look of the paper cones.

So this morning I swapped them out. (Crossover was already set up for 16R woofer, namely 2226J.) I had low expectations, figuring they had probably been overdriven at times, maybe the magnet weakenend, and the added cone mass and surround stiffness due to paint couldn't help. My guess is that Fs is no longer the spec'ed 30. Yet they are only a little less punchy than the 2226, and overall, definitely listenable! Maybe this is a new variation in the EWG catalog?

If anyone has tips on dealing with spray paint on cones and surrounds, please share. Otherwise, I'm calling it "weather treatment", a feature rather than a bug. Bring on the backyard barbecue parties!
 
Tubino,....
I am to try using the 2226 in my JBL SR4725's for this project. I would like to also use the DE250. I will just leave the 2426H on a 2370 horn in place & just dissconnect the assembly & mount the JBL wave guide & DE250 on top of sr4725 cab. The sr4725 useing top flight DIY 45 SET is allready good, so it will be a good test for the E-wave . I heard the e-wave yesterday on AR I think & was impressed with results & great job on XO. I liked the imaging better with e-wave than the 2426H/2370 horn combo. 2226H allready has a great mid range to me. A great tube amp will show this. Can you tell me the XO you used with your 2226/DE250 combo...? I would like to copy it. I would even like to try the 2426H with new XO e-wave style if possible, but DE250 will probably be more to my likeing. I allready have the JBL wave guides & most XO parts I am sure. Thanks
Joe
 
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