Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Zilch]

The other day I acquired another pair of unrestored OLAdvents for no good reason.

Yesterday a friend dropped off a pair of restorable ULAdvents with vague ideas of restoration.

Same thing's happening here. I've got 3.5 pair of Large Advents, now, in addition to the pair I'm modding with 8" waveguides.

BTW, the classic ewave crossover shows inverted polarity to the tweeter. Is that only when a negative polarity woofer like a JBL is used or is that the general case for a positive polarity compression driver and a positive polarity woofer?

The E'Wave crossover assumes positive polarity for both. If you use inverse-polarity woofers like many JBLs, reversing the woofer polarity is the preferred approach to yield an industry-standard polarity system, which matters if your using them with other speakers, as in a HT system.

Three-way, like you're doing, the only way to know for certain is to measure in the final baffle alignment, but you can sometimes tell by listening, as well, as when you perceived something "wrong" with in original build. I'd get the mid and high in the optimum phase first, and then find what's "correct" for the woofer/mid transition, probably....

 

[wiredbecker]

Same thing's happening here. I've got 3.5 pair of Large Advents, now, in addition to the pair I'm modding with 8" waveguides.

Don't forget about the bullnose NLA waiting in the wings on my bench. They're gonna be sweet:thmbsp:

 

[Bauhausler]

I think I'll build up teh second crossover tomorrow and listen to the pair. That makes a big difference. For some reason I can hear flaws with two speakers that a single one does not show. even with mono material. Oddly, there doesn't seem to be much attenuation needed on the top end. The B110 seems to be more sensitive than I recalled when run in this 200 - 900 hz band.

 

[Zilch]

Don't forget about the bullnose NLAs waiting in the wings on my bench. They're gonna be sweet:thmbsp:

With those, we are BURIED in Advents here, Wired-dood!

[We need more ARs to catch up, now.... :tongue: ]

 

[Bauhausler]

With those, we are BURIED in Advents here, Wired-dood!

[We need more ARs to catch up, now.... :tongue: ]

I have 2 sets of AR cabs. The black ones shown here and another walnut pair which have been stripped to just woofers and terminals, with the mid and tweet holes boarded over.
What are you doing with AR cabs and waveguides, or don't I want to know?

 

[Zilch]

What are you doing with AR cabs and waveguides, or don't I want to know?

Their Altecs long since removed, the AR1s are getting 18-Sound ellipticals w/DE-250, probably, once I verify the AR woofers will play high enough.

AR2s already have vertical DDS horns in them, as I showed in another thread here.

On the lookout for a pair of AR2x for standard E'Wavin'.

A local AKer is doing AR2ax.

Not sure about more AR4s, since I've already Mini-E'Waved Boston A60s, but maybe....

 

[Bauhausler]

Their Altecs long since removed, the AR1s are getting 18-Sound ellipticals w/DE-250, probably, once I verify the AR woofers will play high enough.

AR2s already have vertical DDS horns in them, as I showed in another thread here.

On the lookout for a pair of AR2x for standard E'Wavin'.

A local AKer is doing AR2ax.

Not sure about more AR4s, since I've already Mini-E'Waved Boston A60s, but maybe....

I have 4 AR4s here but no interest in rehabbing them. I've owned them in good working order before & didn't feel they were worth the trouble. The cab is a good size for a B110 and the 6.5 X 12" waveguide side by side or the 8 X 8, which I haven't used before. That's tempting, although this large a cabinet would have to be ported for the B110.

 

[Zilch]

I have 4 AR4s here but no interest in rehabbing them. I've owned them in good working order before & didn't feel they were worth the trouble.

I've swapped out the woofers on all of them with JBL 116H, closed box. Only the earliest AR4 woofers will play high enough, and those don't make the extended bass, such as it is.

The 8" waveguide is too deep to fit, but the 6" will go nicely, looks like, with a bit of patching in the tweeter counterbore. I'm going to try the B&C DE-10 with that next, and maybe the P-Audio asymmetric waveguide.

The small 18-Sound elliptical fits and works well.... :yes:

 

[geiman]

Large Advents, now, in addition to the pair I'm modding with 8" waveguides.:

Some where deep in this thread are the specs/sources for these various waveguides. I looked on the JBL pro website and just got confused.
Let me back up. I have a pair of ola utilites that would be good candidates for a econo-waveguide project.
Is there a list of waveguides that are appropriate for the Ola with PN's and sources?
I found the crossover info in the Advent econowaveguide thread and I can build them myself. There is also mention of the Pyle waveguides there but no part ID.
This thread is humongous, hard to find specific information. Help!

 

[Bauhausler]

Some where deep in this thread are the specs/sources for these various waveguides. I looked on the JBL pro website and just got confused.
Let me back up. I have a pair of ola utilites that would be good candidates for a econo-waveguide project.
Is there a list of waveguides that are appropriate for the Ola with PN's and sources?
I found the crossover info in the Advent econowaveguide thread and I can build them myself. There is also mention of the Pyle waveguides there but no part ID.
This thread is humongous, hard to find specific information. Help!

I wrote one of the Advent waveguide conversion threads. The Pyle part number for the 12" X 6.5" waveguide is PH612. This is the only one of the waveguides that I've used and I can't comment on others.

I found that the woofer inductor in some early large Advents is 1.5mh, the correct value for the woofer with the econowaveguide crossover.

For me, converting large Advents to waveguides is a no brainer. The waveguide version stomps the stock speaker in performance and sound.

See post 228 for useful information.

 

[ROSSO]

Some where deep in this thread are the specs/sources for these various waveguides. I looked on the JBL pro website and just got confused.
Let me back up. I have a pair of ola utilites that would be good candidates for a econo-waveguide project.
Is there a list of waveguides that are appropriate for the Ola with PN's and sources?
I found the crossover info in the Advent econowaveguide thread and I can build them myself. There is also mention of the Pyle waveguides there but no part ID.
This thread is humongous, hard to find specific information. Help!

I share your pain. Having hacked a path through the jungle that is the Parts & Service part of the JBL Pro website, here's what I found and where I found it:

All JBL horn & waveguide part numbers: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Horn List/Horn Parts List.pdf
part number 338800-001 is the 6"x12" original e-waver http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series/AC2215,95-WH.pdf
part number 364700-001 is the 8"x8" rotatable http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC1895-WH.pdf
part number 364914-001 is the 6"x6" mini wg http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC16-WH.pdf
part number 365124-001 is the wide dispersion (120x60 IIRC) 8" rotatable http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC2826-WH.pdf

I believe you can find all of these in their natural habitat at:

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/AE Series Compact Models.htm

The original e-wave (338800) is also used in the JRX series PA systems and the AE series:

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/AE Series.html

The JBL Pro search engine leaves a little to be desired. If you search for "2226H", for instance, it gives you a list of every speaker system ever made with that driver, but no link to the spec sheet for the driver itself. IIRC, it also won't search for the Parts department part number, a search for "338800" yields zero hits. It can be frustrating.

 

[900ss]

I am very curious about how this performs and if it is a lower powered potential replacement for the selenium D220s.

I'm going to try the B&C DE-10

 

[BHamm]

Their Altecs long since removed, the AR1s are getting 18-Sound ellipticals w/DE-250, probably, once I verify the AR woofers will play high enough.

AR2s already have vertical DDS horns in them, as I showed in another thread here.

On the lookout for a pair of AR2x for standard E'Wavin'.

A local AKer is doing AR2ax.

Not sure about more AR4s, since I've already Mini-E'Waved Boston A60s, but maybe....

Hi Zilch,

I will likely finish my AR2ax today. I just need to buy the fiberglass stuffing, assemble parts and will be done. I will post pics later this week. The AR cabs are ideal for the WG conversion and solidly built. Can't wait to have you measure them at Zilch Lab.

Bryan

 

[Zilch]

I have a pair of ola utilites that would be good candidates for a econo-waveguide project. Is there a list of waveguides that are appropriate for the Ola with PN's and sources?

The standard E'Wave documented in the project summary link in the first post of this thread fits OLA utilities nicely. As the Bauhausler has indicated above, it's a no brainer slam dunk. :yes:

I will likely finish my AR2ax today. I just need to buy the fiberglass stuffing, assemble parts and will be done. I will post pics later this week. The AR cabs are ideal for the WG conversion and solidly built. Can't wait to have you measure them at Zilch Lab.

We are all looking forward to seeing your project here, Bryan.... :thmbsp:

 

[marantzfan]

I like the looks of that 18-Sound waveguide and that fact that you can get away with a narrower front baffle is nice. My only question is does it measure and sound as good as the JBL wavegide?

 

[Bauhausler]

AR3/5AEwaves further observations

I built up the second crossover this morning so I have both speakers running now.
It works much better if you don't wire up the Lpad backwards, I've found.
I installed a switch to allow me to bypass the CL HP section of the tweeter crossover and connect directly to the CD compensation filter. This will allow me to experiment with an external line level crossover and higher crossover points.

I really like prototyping crossovers on these plastic half-boxes. I can make all of the holes with a junk soldering pencil and clean them up with a tapered reamer. It's fast and easy but smelly.

I could definitely see using the B110 and AR woofer with a waveguide. I think I'd like to try a different, smaller waveguide and a higher crossover point. The B110 is typically used as high as 3500 hz and I feel like I'm throwing away an important octave by crossing it over so low.
Some crossover networks used with the B110 include a notch filter to take down the level at 1khz a bit. I can gear a little bit of prominence there that I would take down to flatten the response.

I tried this setup in a different configuration substituting 811B horns for the PH612 waveguides. Not a huge amount of difference in the direct listening position but the waveguide does have audibly better dispersion.

 

[jackgiff]

I could definitely see using the B110 and AR woofer with a waveguide. I think I'd like to try a different, smaller waveguide and a higher crossover point. The B110 is typically used as high as 3500 hz and I feel like I'm throwing away an important octave by crossing it over so low.

Ross, I played with a three way early in this thread, and used a JBL 104H for the mids. It was housed in the recommended enclosure of around 80 square inches (IIRC), and was crossed at 900 HZ and 3-3.5 KHz. It was very sweet sounding, but I had it mounted on the JBL two way waveguide, which is huge, and not Econo at all.

I am very interested to see where you go with this three way. I may get around to try another one myself, but will bypass the big two way waveguide for purposes of keeping the soundstage smaller. The two way waveguide definitely has some great possibilities, but will need a big room to fully utilize them.

Perhaps the smaller 6 inch square waveguide?

 

[Bauhausler]

I'd like to try a 3-way with a small waveguide, the B110 and a woofer capable of going down to 30 hz. This presents serious packaging obstacles. Putting the open-back B110 into an existing cab as I have done in teh AR cabs requires 'stealing' a certain amount of the cabinet volume for an enclosure for the B110. This compromises the woofer performance if other changes are not made. Also it's a challenge finding enough baffle space for the waveguide and the B110.
One possibility would be these utility Valencia cabinets. I could neatly install 1 (or 2!) B110 and a 6" X 6" waveguide in the upper section (sealed) and throw a 15" in the bottom (ported). That could probably be made to work but it would be strange, to say the least.
That idea may be moot, as a friend's son who's a DJ has been eyeing these cabs for PA duty and I'd give him first crack at them before I started doing strange hybrid stuff to them.

 

[geiman]

thanks guys for helping me with the OLA project I have in mind.
I found all the information I needed, finally thanks to Bauhausler and Zilch.

 

[Bauhausler]

I've decided to split my offensive and work on more than 1 front. I just ordered a pair of 15" Dayton Classic woofers for the Valencia cabinets. I also ordered a pair of D220Ti compression drivers. I now have the Pyle PH612 6.5" X 12" waveguides, a pair of 811B clones with thread-on attachment (that fit the Valencia cabinets) to fool with. I'm probably also going to buy a pair of the 6" X 6" waveguides to experiment with.
In the 3-way system I want to be able to push the crossover between the waveguide and the B110 much higher with an active XO unit to get the most out of the B110.
The parts will probably be here tomorrow. The D210Ti drivers will go on the 811B clones and the D220Ti drivers will go on the PH612 waveguides.
It looks like I may be hosting the April Southeast Michigan Audio Club listening session and beer bust. Who knows what I'll have working here in 3 - 4 weeks?