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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

bonehead Q time

Alright, this is making me crazy...

One of my Ewaves is louder than the other. I opened up the quieter one and couldn't immediately see anything amiss. Due to timing, I put it back together and have been going over my pictures to see if I have a crossover mishap.

Could a swap of R1 and R2 cause this?

Could a mixed up L-Pad connection do it? The Lpad works as it should: full left is off.

To balance between the two, I have to use the balance pot on my preamp (pre set to mono to balance). It seems that the woofers are OK with this balance correction, too (lpads off).

I know it's the one speaker because I swapped them and the quiet one stayed more quiet. Simple polarity switching of the speaker cables didn't seem to change anything for the better.

What a pisser.

I know, I know. I need to open it up again and compare. Maybe even swap Selenium drivers...

Sounds pretty good with the L/R compensation, though.

:thumbsdn: :lazer:
 
djnagle said:
Great job T!!! Are you abandoning your Imperials for the eWave?
Click to expand...

Aw HELL no! :D The 2226 in a 4ft cab is half of a great two-way, and that size cab is the biggest thing I could push up the skinny awkward pull-down stairs to my garage workshop (until I build a dumbwaiter solution). The fun thing about putting the EWG in that cabinet is that I can have tunes in the workshop now, and maybe in the backyard this summer...

But nice as the 2226 and a 1" compression driver can be, it can't come CLOSE to the giant dynamics of the Imperial paired with a bigger comp driver, and I'm looking to go UP from that, for the ultimate home theater and workout room.

Oh, and project update: I finished the second one! The whole mini-project was done in between watching the kids, doing laundry, wash chop marinate vegetables, making the kids a snack, grilling asparagus and zucchini, pushing laundry another round, playing a round of go-fish, getting dinner on the table. I doubt it took much more than an hour of actual time for both: drag cabs to sawhorses, pencil in the cut, sabre-saw it, use the wave guide to mark mounting holes and drill, put the driver on and wire it, screw the EWG in place, drag back onto a makeshift stand and wire it up. I did the second one while the grill heated up -- and it's a gas grill!

Both speakers, on makeshift stands about 4" difference in height:

496802519_8kpA8-M-0.jpg
 
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von.ah said:
Alright, this is making me crazy...

One of my Ewaves is louder than the other. I opened up the quieter one and couldn't immediately see anything amiss. Due to timing, I put it back together and have been going over my pictures to see if I have a crossover mishap.

Could a swap of R1 and R2 cause this?

Could a mixed up L-Pad connection do it? The Lpad works as it should: full left is off.

To balance between the two, I have to use the balance pot on my preamp (pre set to mono to balance). It seems that the woofers are OK with this balance correction, too (lpads off).

I know it's the one speaker because I swapped them and the quiet one stayed more quiet. Simple polarity switching of the speaker cables didn't seem to change anything for the better.

What a pisser.

I know, I know. I need to open it up again and compare. Maybe even swap Selenium drivers...

Sounds pretty good with the L/R compensation, though.

:thumbsdn: :lazer:
Click to expand...

Turn down the highs all the way and listen to the woofers, are they the same and its only the HF? Then switch the Selenium drivers. If it still stays unbalanced check your crossover. Mixing up the two resistors on one speaker would make a difference, one could have a 15 in series with the tweet and the other could have the 30.

Similarly, it is easy to wire the L-pad backwards, i.e. connections that are supposed to be to post 3 are on post 1, and connections to post 1 are on post 3? They dont work both ways the same, it ones reversed that could do it too Check the little tiny numbers on the L-pad posts..

Then take the schematic of the crossover and follow every wire, crosschecking against the other crossover and look for a slipped up connection.

Good luck, I'm betting its a simple miswire.

Russellc
 
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Thought I would post some observations after replacing my Selenium 220s with the DE250s. My thanks go out to Wayne1 for putting together the group buy (and delivery).

I don't have any way to measure responses, but to my ears the DE250s are better, even without the crossover mods. For reference, I built my original Ewaves with the LE14 and recommended crossover.

Initially I swapped out one speaker only, and A/B'ed the sound using a mono source, side to side. I rolled the L pad back about to about 1/3 position on the speaker with the DE250 to compensate for the extra efficiency to balance things out. Not very "scientific", but then again I'm just a speaker hack, and it seemed to work.

While the 220s sound very good, the DE250s have a smoother, silkier sound, more detailed in comparison to the 220s. I'm not good at describing sounds I hear, but when a guitar string "plucks" I could definitely hear the difference between the two. The difference in sound was subtle, but better using the DE250s. Probably not the kind of thing I could notice just listening to one speaker or the other on it's own, since everything is relative with speakers until you put them side to side and A/B them.

I'll eventually make the crossover mod to my Ewaves, but for now just listen and enjoy the upgrade.

Plus, I hope to have some fun trying the Seleniums with some other speaker configs around the house... I have a few ideas to explore.
 
lico said:
Thought I would post some observations after replacing my Selenium 220s with the DE250s.
Click to expand...
That's what I hear also. The Kapton diaphragm is smoother sounding than Selenium's titanium.

It's a good question, what do E'Wavers do when they upgrade like this?

Seems several have found the same answer: mount the standard E'Wave and crossover in its own stackable cab to try that with various combinations, and the adventure continues.... :thmbsp:
 
djnagle said:
Very good looking waves T. I still love the read of the Stromberg Carlsons.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Those SC drivers on the baffles are now hooked up to Sansui tuner, Marantz preamp and 100-watt PA amp, and I can listen to the radio while monkeying with the main system... I like that.

Paratima said:
Now THAT'S fast! :lmao::lmao::lmao:
Click to expand...

I just had to blow my horn, er waveguide, cuz sometimes these little projects take me forever, and this one didn't. I credit the simple fact that I now have a workshop (still feels new!) where I had the speaker cabinets, drill & bits, saw, sawhorses, and enough room to do this, and a setup to hear them immediately after. I love having a workshop...

Hey Zilch, this HAS to make me an official e-waver! I built the crossovers, used the EWG, actually mounted driver and EWG IN A CABINET with a woofer, and posted photos... when does my 15 minutes of fame start? Or did I miss it already?

I may swap some beater JBL 2205s for the cherry 2226, and use these for summer fun with an iPod and SS amp in the backyard of Chez Tubino.
 
Zilch said:
Yes, for the low-sensitivity version.

Take out that 9V battery across the LF input, though; there's no V1 there.

Also, you've shown the generic lowpass; you may want to adapt Jack's alternative variant for LE14A:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90115&d=1210028771

That'd be two 30 uF caps and a 2 mH inductor.

Further, I have twice now verified that you'll need the high-sensitivity version of the highpass with LE14A and D220Ti, two 3 uF caps for C3a & b, and R1, R2 per that schematic, or 16 and 25 Ohms, respectively, if you're using the Dayton R's.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Zilch, On the charge coupled crossover schematic I cant help but notice that compared to the "regular" crossovers, the L-pad is reversed. That is, in the CC version the - leg of the wire coming from the -post of the woofer goes to tab 1 on the l-pad, where as it connects to tab 3 on the regular crossover. Isnt this the same miss-wire I did to my L-pads previously?
Here I go again!

Russellc
 
lico said:
Thought I would post some observations after replacing my Selenium 220s with the DE250s. My thanks go out to Wayne1 for putting together the group buy (and delivery).

I don't have any way to measure responses, but to my ears the DE250s are better, even without the crossover mods. For reference, I built my original Ewaves with the LE14 and recommended crossover.

Initially I swapped out one speaker only, and A/B'ed the sound using a mono source, side to side. I rolled the L pad back about to about 1/3 position on the speaker with the DE250 to compensate for the extra efficiency to balance things out. Not very "scientific", but then again I'm just a speaker hack, and it seemed to work.

While the 220s sound very good, the DE250s have a smoother, silkier sound, more detailed in comparison to the 220s. I'm not good at describing sounds I hear, but when a guitar string "plucks" I could definitely hear the difference between the two. The difference in sound was subtle, but better using the DE250s. Probably not the kind of thing I could notice just listening to one speaker or the other on it's own, since everything is relative with speakers until you put them side to side and A/B them.

I'll eventually make the crossover mod to my Ewaves, but for now just listen and enjoy the upgrade.

Plus, I hope to have some fun trying the Seleniums with some other speaker configs around the house... I have a few ideas to explore.
Click to expand...

I agree on your assesment of the DE 250 drivers as to the increased detail on guitar strings and so forth. I have installed the recomended coil and cap, but I think something isnt right. I keep getting that feeling that's hard to explain, the detail sort of pierces your head rather than drawing you into the music like the Selenium driver does. I get tired of listening a little quicker it seems.

I usually keep the L-pad at about 12 oclock for the Seleniums, but turned down to 10 oclock with the DE 250 drivers. The driver shows great promise, I wondered if maybe there was a spike that needs to be taken out with a notch type filter? ( like some of the BMS drivers needed)

Just wondering!

Russellc
 
Russellc said:
Zilch, On the charge coupled crossover schematic I cant help but notice that compared to the "regular" crossovers, the L-pad is reversed. That is, in the CC version the - leg of the wire coming from the -post of the woofer goes to tab 1 on the l-pad, where as it connects to tab 3 on the regular crossover. Isnt this the same miss-wire I did to my L-pads previously?
Click to expand...
Note that the order of the terminals is also inverted. L-pads may be connected either way, so long as the driver is between terminals 2 and 1 with "input" between 3 and 1 (or 1 and 3, as may be preferred,) and you maintain the correct HF driver polarity.

I prefer to have terminal 1 be common with the woofer common, so drivers may be a three-wire connection, if desired, as JBL commonly does. The filters have to be split for biamping, typically, anyway, tho.

Jack designed the E'Wave crossover, and, coming at this from an Altec background, he connects L-pads the opposite way.

It CAN get confusing, and that's partly why the initial run of E'Wave PCBs had the HF polarity reversed. I did the layout and got that wrong, plain and simple. Follow the input, L-pad, and driver wiring designations on the current ZilchLab PCB overlay, and the wiring is correct, per Jack's original schematics.

If you're using inverse-polarity JBL woofers, reverse the polarity at their connections such that the overall system conforms to industry-standard polarity conventions. :yes:


Russellc said:
I agree on your assesment of the DE 250 drivers as to the increased detail on guitar strings and so forth. I have installed the recomended coil and cap, but I think something isnt right.
Click to expand...
There's a 3 dB peak at 3.1 kHz in the response, and I may be doing more with respect to the filter design once I verify the performance with my own pair here. I may also be working on the LE14A lowpass for use with it, perhaps spec'ing a Zobel.... :dunno:
 
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Zilch, I just need $80 that I don't owe to someone else and I'll buy the crossover parts to finish my econowave project with the Sound 404 speakers (lost sound anyone?)
 
Hi, Sir.Byrd!

You have the waveguides and drivers already, then?
200488/5034=39.8268​
 
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AR3/5AWAVE, the world's most confused speaker

Pictured is an odd hybrid of Econowave, AR3a and LS3/5A. The cabinets and woofers are AR3a. The midwoofer is a Kef B110 with a damped chamber behind it. The tweeter in the cabinet is not connected.
I'm using the classic 'low sensitivity' passive eWave crossover between the B110 and the Selenium 210Ti. The woofer is driven from its own amp with a line level 18db crossover at 200hz. The same crossover, with a 200 hz high pass is driving a second amp that feeds the ewave passive crossover.
These are three drivers that I really like: the AR3a woofer, the B110 and the Ewave. I had to try them together.
The crossover is haywired together on a plastic half-box for easy modification.
The last pic is the LS3/5A crossover that I usually use with these speakers to drive the B110 and the T27 tweeter. It is not employed in this Ewave experiment.

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The verdict is:

????

I dunno yet. I hear a lot of what I like about all three drivers but I'm not sure the balance is right. Also, the ewave LP circuit is generic for woofers usable in 2-ways. I'm pretty sure something better could be developed for the B110, which has significantly better upper end response than a typical 12".

The other day I acquired another pair of unrestored OLAdvents for no good reason.
Yesterday a friend dropped off a pair of restorable ULAdvents with vague ideas of restoration.

I checked the driver spacing on the Utility cabinet and a clever person could get the B110 and the 6 X 12" waveguide on there with only the slightest trimming of the horn edge for clearance. I now wish I hadn't tried that because it's giving me Big Ideas.

I don't have the resources or time to do justice to developing the right crossover for a B110/ewave combination but the idea is REALLY compelling.

I'm listening to one channel now (only 1 crossover built) and it sounds pretty good.

BTW, the classic ewave crossover shows inverted polarity to the tweeter. Is that only when a negative polarity woofer like a JBL is used or is that the general case for a positive polarity compression driver and a positive polarity woofer?
 
Maybe a different waveguide would be a better match with the B110. The B110 has good enough upper end response to be run probably an octave higher without getting into trouble. That would open up a lot of possibilities. Maybe a smaller square waveguide would work well.
 
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