Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Divotdog]

With his "natural" waveguide mounting, Bsujeep is "Official" E'Waver #66!

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584

Dear god! Don’t tell me those 5 minute baffles are going to be in our permanent archives!

 

[Divotdog]

I'll send you my address. I do have a local AK'er who will cringe at the look of those and soon supply me with a proper looking setup. :thmbsp:

No more pictures until I fix that Bill!

 

[bsujeep]

No more pictures until I fix that Bill!

Hmm it does have a nice slapped together flair now doesn't it, you know right out of bad homes and gardens.

 

[Zilch]

If you like how they sound well enough, consider new baffles for the cabs, integrating both the woofer and waveguide. There's probably room for the ports, too.... :thmbsp:

 

[skywave-rider]

Ocean Way

Yea!
My favorite part of AES New York:

http://www.impactlab.com/2009/01/11/ocean-way-monitors/

 

[ROSSO]

Yea!
My favorite part of AES New York:
http://www.impactlab.com/2009/01/11/ocean-way-monitors/

Now that's the new high bar for WAF - blue, looks to be about six feet tall, maybe 4 feet wide, and they ain't even showin' us the rack (or racks?) of amps, crossovers, preamp, etc it takes to rum 'em...:thmbsp:

I guess they gotta do something to compensate for income lost to falling CD sales and do-it-yourself digital home recording studio studio software.

 

[skywave-rider]

LOL!

Actually, the industry is dead, as if you did not know. Digidesign did not bother to come.

I think it looks like an oil drum. You're right. Gotta hold on to the bad icons of the past. If they're good.

Viva Ducati!

 

[Zilch]

Repro of RCA, if I recall correctly; story's over on LHF.

Was supposed to get three subs (or one and two PRs) across the bottom, but it was "Good 'nuff" without them.... :thmbsp:

 

[EarlK]

Yep, RCA clones be they

Cool, Skywave !

Here's the Unofficial LC-9A "Users" Thread over at LHF .
Steve Schell weighs in with some wonderful historical info ( as always ) about these VOTT inspired speakers .

>< cheers

 

[ROSSO]

Repro of RCA, if I recall correctly; story's over on LHF.

Was supposed to get three subs (or one and two PRs) across the bottom, but it was "Good 'nuff" without them.... :thmbsp:

Oh yeah - I see the resemblence. Even blue. LH ad reprint says the originals were "only" 44 inches tall. They must have these parked up on what must be about a 28 inch riser or LF/sub section? Or the two guys in the picture are packin' Lollipop Guild membership cards...

 

[bugs762]

Boy, this post is so large it is really intimidating, however it has really captured my interest in doing an econo wave project.

I've looked at all of the completed projects and have read through the links at the beginning of this thread.

For someone without a bit of speaker design know-how. What is the best way to get going on a project like this? Is there some other reading that would be helpful?

What I would like to do is use a pair of Boston A100 cabinets and woofers that I have. If it is simple as removing the existing tweeter and fitting the new compression drivers and crossovers, I'm happy with that. But, do I need to be concerned with the reduced volume in the cabinet due to the compression driver and horn? Are there other design factors (and I'm sure there are many) that I need to be aware of and concerned about.

The Boston has good bass and nice detail, but it not famous for having a lot of grunt. The project that looks like it comes the closest to what I have with the Bostons is the Large Advent project.

I need a gentle push in the right direction.

Thanks,
Bugs

 

[Russellc]

About a week before Twangfest, I had been swapping out motor run oil capacitors for PIO in my Ewave x-overs. Things were coming around with the original caps but I wanted to try out something different.

Everything seemed a little edgy but figured that a couple days of run in should smooth things out. Having never these in a larger room setting, I was curious to hear them that way even without a sub and brought them down to Jays.

Initial setup only allowed for tight positioning of the speakers with a questionable amplification and source, but even after that was resolved, the result was absolutely abysmal. No LF, with no soundstage and just provided a wall of noise. They were bad to the extent where I actually left the room after listening for only a couple of minutes

The EVM 12L in the TL806A cab was just not cutting it for LF/mid and was sounding very PA in its presentation. That driver, although reportedly very nice for front loaded horns was not going to make it in this application.

After I got back and a few days passed, I decided to do what I should have done to begin with. I dug out the JBL 4507 cabs and loaded them with Gauss 4583F 15's.

Ugly but mucho better. Now, were getting somewhere!

RC

I think you are being a little hard on them. With the original hookup, they were very close together, and the computer source at the time, (sounded fine just earlier) had a thin sound on your E'waves. Spreading them apart and correcting sources seemed to improve them dramatically. Yes, like many High Eff. bass drivers I've become acustom to, they were not the last word in bass extension, but they were in a very reasonable sized boxes one must remember. These would like subs to cover the entire spectrum, if sub 40 hz poundings are required.

The 4507 boxes are another story. They not only dont need subs, they CAN SERVE as subs! ( Especially with 2235H and 2 ports closed...one to replicate 4430 alignment). These boxes are WAY larger than the smaller E'waves you brought to Twanfest.

Speaking of your E'waves at Twangfest, once set up better and with corrected source, They played quite nicely, the oil caps definately shaping the Selenium drivers sound towards the lucious end of the scale. Wonder what CC oil caps in the crossover would sound like? H m-m-m-m. Look forward to seeing you in the spring.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Looks like QSC446/DE250 will fit on the baffle, but nobody's worked through potential interference of the internal brace behind yet.

As soon as I next remove a woofer I'll look around in there, if other 4507 owners beat me to it.
Collapsing directivity not withstanding, these 15 inch E'waves throw a tremendous soundstage that can pressurize a room like no other 2 way system I've owned!

Russellc

 

[EarlK]

Wonder what CC oil caps in the crossover would sound like?

IME, ( 6 years & counting in DC-Biasing caps ) CCing Oil caps ( PIO or MPP motor-runs ) is a just a waste of already well damped capacitance .
I recommend only CCing dry-film type caps which all have ( to my ears ) high Q resonances that are removed by the dc bias .

>< cheers

 

[doucanoe]

I think you are being a little hard on them. With the original hookup, they were very close together, and the computer source at the time, (sounded fine just earlier) had a thin sound on your E'waves. Spreading them apart and correcting sources seemed to improve them dramatically. Yes, like many High Eff. bass drivers I've become acustom to, they were not the last word in bass extension, but they were in a very reasonable sized boxes one must remember. These would like subs to cover the entire spectrum, if sub 40 hz poundings are required.

The 4507 boxes are another story. They not only dont need subs, they CAN SERVE as subs! ( Especially with 2235H and 2 ports closed...one to replicate 4430 alignment). These boxes are WAY larger than the smaller E'waves you brought to Twanfest.

Speaking of your E'waves at Twangfest, once set up better and with corrected source, They played quite nicely, the oil caps definately shaping the Selenium drivers sound towards the lucious end of the scale. Wonder what CC oil caps in the crossover would sound like? H m-m-m-m. Look forward to seeing you in the spring.

Russellc

Well maybe a little. I would like to think of it as being honest about what I am hearing than "hard on them but thanks for saying. I guess I'm a little particular about what I expect from a speaker of my own. Actually, I was getting pretty good results in my basement trial area and was really hoping they would open up more in a larger room. That wasn't the case here, which was fine. It just meant back to the drawing board as far as LF is concerned.

The original choice to go with the EV cabs/woofers was originally a matter of convience. Although they did reasonably well within their limitations, it became clear to me that in a larger room, it was necessary to use something that would extend the LF to balance the HF. The addition of the 4507 cabs and Gauss drivers accomplished that with greater ease than I had hoped for.

By the way, the decision to go with the 15" Gauss 4583F's was twofold.

First, using the parameters in the Win ISD database matched with what I was getting using WT3, a 5 cu-ft cab tuned to 38-40 Hz seemed ideal for them. Reducing the pots by one, also appeared (on paper anyway) to work well and reduce port noise.

Secondly, I was going to go with my 2226H's but I have owned the Gauss for 2-3 years now and have not used them for anything. Curiosity about how they would do in those cabs you understand .

Anyway, all is well now and they are playing just fine together.


Too bad you had to bug out early Russell. I look forward to seeing you again also :yes:

RC

 

[Russellc]

IME, ( 6 years & counting in DC-Biasing caps ) CCing Oil caps ( PIO or MPP motor-runs ) is a just a waste of already well damped capacitance .
I recommend only CCing dry-film type caps which all have ( to my ears ) high Q resonances that are removed by the dc bias .

>< cheers

Thankyou, now I can quite thinking about such things!

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

What I would like to do is use a pair of Boston A100 cabinets and woofers that I have. If it is simple as removing the existing tweeter and fitting the new compression drivers and crossovers, I'm happy with that. But, do I need to be concerned with the reduced volume in the cabinet due to the compression driver and horn? Are there other design factors (and I'm sure there are many) that I need to be aware of and concerned about.

I need a gentle push in the right direction.

Heya, Bugs!

The internal volume displaced by eWave is inconsequential in that size cabinet. You can try them out just sitting on top to get an impression of how they will sound without doing anything to the cabs but bringing out the woofer leads.

I have a pair of A100s here and will take a look at what seems appropriate.

Consider yourself "pushed."

Edit: A perfect fit, looks like; they'll make excellent eWave floorstanders.... :yes:

********
Sidebar:

Here we are, nearly 500 pages, 7500 posts, 400,000 views, 66 members having built EconoWaves, and probably well over 100 systems completed -- it's unprecedented. Everything necessary to build a project is linked from Post #1, and the design principles are documented throughout the thread for those interested in pursuing a more comprehensive understanding, with new material added continuously by the participants.

For me, each project posted here is an exciting adventure in exploring new possibilities far beyond the scope of what any of us could individually accomplish. By the same token, I am struck by the precedent just posted by Skywave and EarlK: LC-9A with BMS 4550 and JBL 2226H? Déjà vu, indeed.... :thmbsp:

 

[Zilch]

Anyway, all is well now and they are playing just fine together.

Is eWave teasing Tractrix yet...?

 

[skywave-rider]

Repro of RCA, if I recall correctly; story's over on LHF.

Was supposed to get three subs (or one and two PRs) across the bottom, but it was "Good 'nuff" without them.... :thmbsp:

GC Pro had them running in a system with a modern automated console, etc.. I attached the tear sheet I picked up if anyone is interested. There are some specifications. Don't know what the drivers are.

Cool, Skywave !

Here's the Unofficial LC-9A "Users" Thread over at LHF .
Steve Schell weighs in with some wonderful historical info ( as always ) about these VOTT inspired speakers .

>< cheers

Yes, I was fascinated by that LHF thread back when...and so I recognized these immediately. I have used Ocean Way monitors, but never these. I think they look cool. Check the price. Not Econo, but they are 2 way.

....

Here we are, nearly 500 pages, 7500 posts, 400,000 views, 66 members having built Econowaves, and probably well over 100 systems completed -- it's unprecedented. Everything necessary to build a project is linked from Post #1, and the design principles are documented throughout the thread for those interested in pursuing a more comprehensive understanding, with new material added continuously by the participants.

For me, each project posted here is an exciting adventure in exploring new possibilities far beyond the scope of what any of us could individually accomplish. By the same token, I am struck by the precedent just posted by Skywave and EarlK: LC-9A with BMS 4550 and JBL 2226H? Déjà vu, indeed.... :thmbsp:

EDIT:
So we do know the driver components... Of course Zilch would know. It is an amazing thread. Correct me if I'm wrong Zilch, but wasn't the proto EWave using BMS 4550s and a JBL woofer?

 

[Normster]

Just a quick update on the CS-77A conversion. After three weeks of listening, the DC300 and Selenium driver are breaking in nicely and these speakers are sounding HUGE compared to stock CS-77s.

I spent some time getting the polyfill right. No instruments, but trial and error seems to point to 16oz of fill per cab. I also made sure to seal up all air leaks. The bass now feels very solid and extends quite a bit lower than before. For the first time, I actually like the sound of these speakers without assistance from a sub.

At first, I had to EQ some harshness out of the upper frequencies, but over the past week, I've flattened the EQ and the Seleniums don't sound harsh at all now.

I just finished listening to the first two cuts from Tommy Emmanuel's "The Journey" CD (Tailin' the Invisible Man and Big Brother). Cranked things up to about 95dB and my jaw hit the floor. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks again to all who made this project possible. You guys have really helped me shore up the weak links in my audio chain.