Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Russellc]

Lot's of talk about better HF drivers, and some people are trying other ones. Some E'Waver's are enthralled by the B&C DE250, but just having finished a project using that driver, I think the BMS 4550 or 4552ND would be the better bet by far. Their mylar diaphragm sounds so smooth, and still goes to 20 KHz, although there is some breakup at the upper limit.

I have built three pairs using BMS, but none of them are EconoWave's. Why doesn't someone try doing an E'Wave using a pair of them? They are SWEEEET!

Edit: While the two mentioned BMS drivers are bolt mounted, the 4540ND is threaded, so will screw on to the JBL and Pyle waveguides recommended.

The Beyma is supposed to be the Bee's knees. 380 or something like that. Probably the next I'll use. I've only heard one BMS, ( 4550 I believe) and didnt care for it at all, likely not nearly enough sampling I'd imagine. didnt have nearly the clarity. Main reason I went with the DE 250.

Russellc

 

[Bauhausler]

I bet those sound pretty good Bauhausler! Have you measured them? what is the intended purpose of these, Near field, Bookshelf?

They measure pretty flat down to 160 Hz and up to 18k. Not enough bottom end for desk speakers. I have JBL Control 1 Monitors on my desk at the moment, with a chip amp that I built and a Chumby for a source.
I'm using the LS3/5Awaves as mains with AR3 cabs/woofers as subs in a 2-channel system in a 36' X 24' room. In a room this size the 5.5" C-to-C distance is negligible and they act almost as a point source. I like the sound. This is an experiment at the moment and I may change the parts around.

 

[jackgiff]

... I've only heard one BMS, ( 4550 I believe) and didnt care for it at all, likely not nearly enough sampling I'd imagine. didnt have nearly the clarity. Main reason I went with the DE 250.

Russellc

I guess that is why they still make both Fords and Chevys. "One mans poison is..."

I am not really impressed with the DE250.

I just ordered a pair of 4540ND's to test. We shall see.

 

[skywave-rider]

Bms

I got the BMS 4550s running active with thread adapter on JBL EWAVE guide and Dayton DC300.

BMS kicks ass. Luckily I can't hear the spike. GF hears it.

Will eventually put my 4552NDs on my 6x6 EWaves, but the crossover will have to be changed.

 

[jackgiff]

I got the BMS 4550s running active with thread adapter on JBL EWAVE guide and Dayton DC300.

BMS kicks ass. Luckily I can't hear the spike. GF hears it.

Will eventually put my 4552NDs on my 6x6 EWaves, but the crossover will have to be changed.

Are you talking about the spike at the upper end (18-20 KHz)? Myrna and I can't hear it either, so on my BMS systems, I didn't worry about it. The 4540ND has it as well, so when testing it, we will try to eliminate it.

Does the adapter change the response of the 4550's?

 

[djnagle]

with my favorite vintage midwoofer the B110. I have D220Ti on these at the moment. Running a combo of Ewave XO on the bottom and AC16 XO on the top with Lpad. The low lows are handled by subs.

These little guys really sound great. They fill up Ross' room more than you'd think.

 

[Russellc]

I guess that is why they still make both Fords and Chevys. "One mans poison is..."

I am not really impressed with the DE250.

I just ordered a pair of 4540ND's to test. We shall see.

that's true, very true. Again, 1 set up isnt enough to form a judgement. Have you any experience with the Beyma drivers? I do not, but several over on Brandon's build have mentioned them very highly.

What is it you dont find agreeable with the DE 250? At first I thought mine were possibly defective. High end seemed shrill, and like a spike through the head. I had the L-pads turned way down. Slowly, as they broke in, I added more and more l-pad until now I'm just a little bit past 12:00.

At one point I thought you stated that the DE 250 with the QSC was exquisite? Wondering what went wrong? Or just a preference? Will watch your BMS work closley...

Russellc

 

[jackgiff]

that's true, very true. Again, 1 set up isnt enough to form a judgement. Have you any experience with the Beyma drivers? I do not, but several over on Brandon's build have mentioned them very highly.

What is it you dont find agreeable with the DE 250? At first I thought mine were possibly defective. High end seemed shrill, and like a spike through the head. I had the L-pads turned way down. Slowly, as they broke in, I added more and more l-pad until now I'm just a little bit past 12:00.

At one point I thought you stated that the DE 250 with the QSC was exquisite? Wondering what went wrong? Or just a preference? Will watch your BMS work closley...

Russellc

The DE250 and QSC waveguide/horn combo ended up sounding great, and I did say something to that effect. But just because it sounds great doesn't mean it impressed me. For about the same price, the BMS has response in the high end that the DE250 doesn't. It may need taming, but at least it is there. It is difficult to put back what was never there.

For my money, the BMS would be a much better choice of driver to use. The pair just ordered will be my fourth pair of BMS drivers. Hopefully they won't disappoint me.

 

[Zilch]

Let's remember that BMS also employs a different technology here -- they're re-entrant ring radiators, not conventional domes.... :yes:

 

[DENNYDOG]

Is there a a solid crossover configuration for the DE250/QSC combo yet? It sounded like there was but then it sounded like there wasn't after more testing. We are getting close to the last delivery date for the QSC's that I heard so hopefully they will be here soon.

I'm trying to keep track but sometimes it's hard to know for sure what values have been set or changed.

 

[jaybird]

Where does the le85/2420 fall in the pecking order with the BMS and the B&C drivers in sound quality? Cost isn't a factor as I already have the drivers.

 

[Zilch]

Is there a a solid crossover configuration for the DE250/QSC combo yet?

Thus far, it's the standard eWave crossover with a couple of component value changes as suggested by Jack.

I'm listening to that right now with the standard eWave inverse polarity on the HF driver using JBL 2414H-1 woofers and measuring null, forward axis, and acoustic center locations.

Of the woofers I've tried in the standard PE KD trapezoidal cabs, which we believe to be around 1.6 - 1.7 cuft with the baffle in the standard recessed location, JBL 123A-1 or 2213(H) and Dayton DC-250 have provided the best low-frequency extension. I haven't tried the DC-250 vented yet, but it has the potential to be even better in that alignment according to the box models. By comparison, this cabinet is too small for DC-300 to make very extended bass, as earlier observed by Gordon.

Where does the le85/2420 fall in the pecking order with the BMS and the B&C drivers in sound quality? Cost isn't a factor as I already have the drivers.

They're among my favorites with the original diaphragms in good condition. You're on your own with respect to crossovers and HF comp for them, though. You'll need throat adapters and mounting brackets, as they are too heavy for the eWaveguide without additional mechanical support.

Answer: put them on 2344(A) horns and build the 16-Ohm version of the L200t3 crossover I posted over on LHF, or swap in 8-Ohm diaphragms and clone the 4430 crossover; it's all in my "Quick and Dirty" thread over there.... :yes:

 

[skywave-rider]

Are you talking about the spike at the upper end (18-20 KHz)? Myrna and I can't hear it either, so on my BMS systems, I didn't worry about it. The 4540ND has it as well, so when testing it, we will try to eliminate it.

Does the adapter change the response of the 4550's?

Yes, Jack. Zilch came up with a notch filter to knock it down. Since I don't notice it (have not done a real A/B) I sometimes don't use the notch.

I don't have the bolt on version of the JBL waveguides. I believe they make a 1" bolt-on version, but it is not Econo. So I have not compared one to the other. Been using Selenium adapters.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-323
I would say BMS has great mids and no fizzyness on top. I stole that word from Russell. Thanks, Bro.

 

[Russellc]

Thus far, it's the standard eWave crossover with a couple of component value changes as suggested by Jack.

I'm listening to that right now with the standard eWave inverse polarity on the HF driver using JBL 2414H-1 woofers and measuring null, forward axis, and acoustic center locations.

Of the woofers I've tried in the standard PE KD trapezoidal cabs, which we believe to be around 1.6 - 1.7 cuft with the baffle in the standard recessed location, JBL 123A-1 or 2213(H) and Dayton DC-250 have provided the best low-frequency extension. I haven't tried the DC-250 vented yet, but it has the potential to be even better in that alignment according to the box models. By comparison, this cabinet is too small for DC-300 to make very extended bass, as earlier observed by Gordon.

They're among my favorites with the original diaphragms in good condition. You're on your own with respect to crossovers and HF comp for them, though. You'll need throat adapters and mounting brackets, as they are too heavy for the eWaveguide without additional mechanical support.

Answer: put them on 2344(A) horns and build the 16-Ohm version of the L200t3 crossover I posted over on LHF, or swap in 8-Ohm diaphragms and clone the 4430 crossover; it's all in my "Quick and Dirty" thread over there.... :yes:

Some of it (4430 crossover) is in the "4430 Help" (Also on LH forum) thread regarding parts list for 4430 crossoveer clone.

russellc

 

[Russellc]

I would say BMS has great mids and no fizzyness on top. I stole that word from Russell. Thanks, Bro.

De Nada. I guess I'll have to obtain a couple of these drivers, once the smoke clears, and I have finished my 4Pi speaker, my F-5 project, Mc225 repair, Mr 67 repair, and a crossover or two, that is. Oh, and I forgot the SE 45 amp!

Which BMS driver is it you use?

Russellc

 

[Bauhausler]

Now I'm all confused. My QSC WGs will be here in a week and I have the DE250s on hand. It looks like all of the potential applications I planned to try with these suffer from geometry problems.
I need to take a second look at those Valencia cabs and D.C. 15" to see if that's viable.

 

[Russellc]

Thus far, it's the standard eWave crossover with a couple of component value changes as suggested by Jack.

Which component changes are the latest? I thought there was a 3rd order HF
version as well? Has anyone just tried Wayne's HF from the 4Pi with the same driver? Just wondering, seems like maybe Skywave had a version with that circuit?

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

Now I'm all confused. My QSC WGs will be here in a week and I have the DE250s on hand. It looks like all of the potential applications I planned to try with these suffer from geometry problems.
I need to take a second look at those Valencia cabs and D.C. 15" to see if that's viable.

Which component changes are the latest? I thought there was a 3rd order HF version as well? Has anyone just tried Wayne's HF from the 4Pi with the same driver? Just wondering, seems like maybe Skywave had a version with that circuit?

The issue with the QSC waveguide is its depth, and how that affects system time alignment in comparison to the standard eWave. Given the added costs of using DE250 to build a "Deluxe" version, we're giving the design additional scrutiny.

Jack did the initial study and his recommended mods to the standard eWave crossover are posted here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3195168#post3195168

He has both woofer and waveguide mounted flush and is running the DE250 in phase, i.e., inverse of the standard connection, to compensate for the HF driver depth offset on the QSC. That works and sounds fine.

The standard eWave crossover is one capacitor and a Zobel away from Wayne's 3-Pi crossover design, which Skywave is trying:

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=12067

Jumper J3 on the eWave PC board provides the insert point for the additional capacitor (C3 in Wayne's schematic) to convert the eWave highpass to 3rd order (or 4th order, if the HF comp capacitor C1 is considered a pole). Note that the HF driver connection is postive polarity.

See also:

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=12232&start=0&

Jack has additionally developed a LR4 crossover which I have not yet measured, and Brandon has suggested a delay ladder circuit which I am testing.

Answer: Go with the standard eWave crossover as modded by Jack. If we come up with anything verifiably better, it'll be given prime time here. In the meantime, we are sharing data for all to peruse; it's what we do, open sourcing the design.... :thmbsp:

 

[900ss]

That is what I am running currently. I am using an Altec 416B for the woofer. I have not measured the frequency response.

Which component changes are the latest? I thought there was a 3rd order HF
version as well? Has anyone just tried Wayne's HF from the 4Pi with the same driver? Just wondering, seems like maybe Skywave had a version with that circuit?

Russellc

 

[jackgiff]

Price quotes for BMS drivers

De Nada. I guess I'll have to obtain a couple of these drivers, once the smoke clears, and I have finished my 4Pi speaker, my F-5 project, Mc225 repair, Mr 67 repair, and a crossover or two, that is.

Which BMS driver is it you use?

Russellc

Hi Cody, Sounds like you have a full plate with all those projects. The Valencia's that have BMS drivers are one pair each of 4550 and 4552ND. The difference in sound is negligible. Both pairs are on Altec 811 horns. The Santana pair is 4555's on the JBL bolt on waveguide (Not Econo).

I e-mailed Assistance Audio for a price quote on BMS drivers of interest, and here is the answer:

Hello Jack,
Thanks for your interest in BMS.

4540 are $124 ea.
4550 are $147 ea.
4552 are $189 ea.

Regards, Jack Arnott
Assistance Audio