Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[donprice]

Yikes. I have some learnin to do. I've spent all my time working with tube builds and haven't done anything with this stuff. I suppose I'm going to have to go through this thread again. This thread is so long.:tears:

But thanks for the TS parameter, it'll get me started.

You think I should bother trying to stick the woofer in the Sansui cabs or will it sound like ass without the proper tuning?

One of the guys here built an eWave that i think used the single driver version of your sub. Look for the photo...once you find the model # for the single you should be able to get the specs for what JBL thought was a good box for that driver. My guess is it might might be half the size of the box you have. Just guessing...

 

[slick.one]

E-wave Model 6

Turns out stock woofer in KLH-6 is 10 3/4inch and the Peerless is 10 3/8inch. Not sure I can make them fit!

I expect those Peerless SLS will play fine in KLH 6 cabs.

We never found a woofer that would play worth a whit in closed-box 17s. I do have several more candidates to try, now....

 

[Zilch]

I'm using 3012LF. It's playing in the trap cab now.

It's got "smack."

More refinement to do; the forward axis is steered 1.70° below the midpoint between drivers right now -- I want that up, not down.

The assist is working: Q=2 +6 dB @ 31.7 Hz.

OR, use a sub.

[OR, two of 'em 3012LF in "0.5" mode.... ]

 

[jhoyt]

Well, I think the B(arzilay)-Waves are nicely broken in now! For a while I've been bugged by one thing: they sound better off-axis, than on-axis. When I'm sitting directly in front of them I can detect an upper-mid "honk", much like traditional horns. It's not glaring, but noticeable. However, I can make it go away by standing up, which puts me at a 30 degree (approx.) angle to the WG throat.

What's the best way to tackle this?

 

[maxmercy]

It's got "smack."

More refinement to do; the forward axis is steered 1.70° below the midpoint between drivers right now -- I want that up, not down.

The assist is working: Q=2 +6 dB @ 31.7 Hz.

OR, use a sub.

[OR, two of 'em 3012LF in "0.5" mode.... ]

I like it...I would definitely use them with a sub....

JSS

 

[Zilch]

What's the best way to tackle this?

Try a reticulated foam plug per Geddes....

I like it...I would definitely use them with a sub....

Remember, that's gated MLS you're looking at. The max resolution is 175 Hz, according to the legend there.

They play down to 50 Hz with authority and go an octave lower using assist; Xmax is 9.1 mm. :yes:

[What's the theoretical max SPL down at 30 Hz...? ]

 

[donprice]

What do you mean by "active assist"? Bumping up the low end on the EQ?

 

[similost]

Well, I think the B(arzilay)-Waves are nicely broken in now! For a while I've been bugged by one thing: they sound better off-axis, than on-axis. When I'm sitting directly in front of them I can detect an upper-mid "honk", much like traditional horns. It's not glaring, but noticeable. However, I can make it go away by standing up, which puts me at a 30 degree (approx.) angle to the WG throat.

What's the best way to tackle this?

I was just looking at yours, and I can't tell what drivers you are using on your horns or what crossovers you are using?

I've got a very similar thing with mine. I used the M19 crossovers, and I found that one of the controls on it, if I keep turned most all the way down it really helps with that a lot... I also think at least with mine, the CD being more sensitive than the woofer tends to cause it to play a little louder and makes it seem more forward like you are describing..

 

[jhoyt]

I was just looking at yours, and I can't tell what drivers you are using on your horns or what crossovers you are using?

I've got a very similar thing with mine. I used the M19 crossovers, and I found that one of the controls on it, if I keep turned most all the way down it really helps with that a lot... I also think at least with mine, the CD being more sensitive than the woofer tends to cause it to play a little louder and makes it seem more forward like you are describing..

I'm using the standard-issue Selenium D220-8 driver on Pyle PH612 horn, with Zilch-lab based crossovers. On the E-Waves, when you turn down the HF, it affects the whole 3K-20K region, but I'm only having trouble with a small part of that.

 

[similost]

ah.. ok.. lots different than my setup, but still a similar issue. At least with mine I can tame it a little with one of my controls, but I'd be interested to know why it's others hearing the same thing too with different setups.

 

[jhoyt]

Try a reticulated foam plug per Geddes....

Can you give me a link or point me in the right direction? I couldn't find much information, other than references to it...

Thanks!

 

[maxmercy]

They play down to 50 Hz with authority and go an octave lower using assist; Xmax is 9.1 mm. :yes:

[What's the theoretical max SPL down at 30 Hz...? ]

100.5 dB 1/2 space, more indoors with boundary loading and room gain, with 9.1mm Xmax...but Xmax is indicative of 10% THD. I limit my speakers at 5% or less, so it would be a little less dB output. But still, I'd cross to sub around 80-100Hz...plenty of headroom for everyone...

JSS

 

[skywave-rider]

Well, I think the B(arzilay)-Waves are nicely broken in now! For a while I've been bugged by one thing: they sound better off-axis, than on-axis. When I'm sitting directly in front of them I can detect an upper-mid "honk", much like traditional horns. It's not glaring, but noticeable. However, I can make it go away by standing up, which puts me at a 30 degree (approx.) angle to the WG throat.

What's the best way to tackle this?

Considering our crossover frequency, if it's "honk" I would guess it's not from the Ewaveguide, but from the upper end response in the woofer. Are you using a 15" driver? The directivity narrows quite a bit with increasing frequency in a 15, and if you have a bump in the woofer's upper end response, that will be more audible on axis. Off axis it will sound attenuated, which you like, though the power response is messed up.

I doubt it's higher into the HF side of the system.

 

[Zilch]

What do you mean by "active assist"? Bumping up the low end on the EQ?

'Zactly, in a precise manner.

A highpass just below there is essential, as well. :yes:

Can you give me a link or point me in the right direction? I couldn't find much information, other than references to it....

It's a Geddes patent-pending thing, documented extensively in his threads on the DIY Audio forum.

Thus far, nobody has found the "right" stuff but Earl, and he charges handsomely for it.

Do I understand it? Yes.

[Have I tried it? No. ]

I doubt it's higher into the HF side of the system.

Good call, Skywave.... :thmbsp:

 

[rage]

I've been reading some of Earl's comments and find them interesting.

I live close to him and will most likely go hear his speakers.

I'm very intrigued by his round waveguide vs our defraction waveguides.

Look at the hpm-redo by kegger for his version of a foam phase plug. It helps with the upper end sizzle of the selenium with high levels.

In so far as honk on axis is concerned.... I had a very nazally sound pre-zobel with the Dayton DC250. The zobel helped flatten things out. This probably was around 2k.

Simi I would get the measuring setup and see what you have. From what I've been reading Earl bases his crossovers on off-axis response and pays no attention to on axis. Everything I've done has been the oposite and I find just some roll off in the upper hf off axis. If you want to borrow my portable setup PM and we can setup shipping or something if you don't mind sending it back after a few weeks.

Really though my setup sounded best with an aggressive toe-in, and I'm not sure how that'll work/look with my barzilay waves that are in progress.

 

[Zilch]

In a moment of weakness, Geddes conceded that PT waveguides are "Better than your ordinary diffraction horn...." :tongue:

 

[wianieq]

My curiosity got the better of me last night and I had to try to rig up the 2035's into my Sansui boxes. The woofer in the spx8000's is 16inches so I had to rig up a collar type thing. Anyway, after I removed a couple of the midrange speakers to make ports it started sounding pretty good. I can tell that these have much much more defined bass than anything else I have. They just don't go real low. The Sansui cabs are about 3 cubic ft. From what I've gathered I need 5 or 6 for these woofers.

So, the Sansui's aren't going to cut it and I have a couple of questions. There are some empty Barzilay cabinets I can get for not too much. I'm not sure on the exact size, but they look like that basic Barzilay speaker that I've seen on here. From what I've gathered though is that they also might not be big enough. So, do you think I would be better off just constructing my own boxes? The Barzilays would be a much cheaper route than building my own, not to mention that they'll look way better. But, I don't want to buy them and then still have to build my own.

Aside from constructing the ewave crossover and flipping my speakers upside down, constructing speaker boxes is new to me so any advice you guys could give is appreciated.

 

[Zilch]

I would not pass up an opportunity to acquire Barzilay cabs inexpensively; woofers come and go.

Even if those had been 2226H, they would not produce extended bass in reasonable alignments.

2035H has a rising response, as I recall. If so, you can get better bass out of them with passive step compensation, and I've just described an active approach that'll work (within limits) even in the Sansui cabs.

There are also good arguments to shift your perspective and think of the 2035s as midbass drivers requiring a sub, or several. If you were doing HT, there'd be no issue here.... :yes:

 

[donprice]

What is the "standard" position of the testing mic for FR measurements? 1m at horn centerline? Will figure out frontal lobe testing later...

I finally got True RTA up and running last night so I'll be ready to do testing of the Kapplite 3015 eWaves...if I can get the wife to leave for a couple of hours.

 

[Zilch]

Yes. The further back, the more the room reflections enter the picture.

With gated quasi-anechoic, 2m is better for system integration, but that requires a large (tall) space.

RTA will include the room, so you want tilted downward response, not flat, which would be too "bright." See the B&K ideal in-room response curve I have posted several times in this forum.

Low frequencies, you must do nearfield.