Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[donc]

2 ae td15h's just arrived,what's next ?

P.Schumacher suggested this sight when i asked for help .was thinking of a 3 or 4 way and when he asked me if i maybe interested in a 2 way, it sparked my interest.who's working on an ae 15"er ? would like all the details with results if the design has made it that far . if the ae's are the cat's meow and e-wave is the cat's meow , the combo should be one hell of a roar ! donc

 

[Zilch]

Pete's crossover for the QSC waveguide and B&C DE250 compression driver was developed just a matter of two weeks ago based upon prototype work here. Considering the quality of your new woofers, I'd suggest you start there.... :yes:

 

[tubino]

P.Schumacher suggested this sight when i asked for help .was thinking of a 3 or 4 way and when he asked me if i maybe interested in a 2 way, it sparked my interest.who's working on an ae 15"er ? would like all the details with results if the design has made it that far . if the ae's are the cat's meow and e-wave is the cat's meow , the combo should be one hell of a roar ! donc

I'll be the renegade (respectful I hope) and suggest that with woofers that good, you might consider a 1.5 or 2" compression driver with a larger horn, crossing over at 650 to 800 hz (depending on horn). I did this with a constant directivity horn (nods to Zilch!) and JBL 2441 and various woofers. The dynamics from the big driver and horn at lower crossover are NOT subtle, and asking less of the woofer at the top can give you more options at the very low end. I think of it as the logical extension of the woofer + driver/horn two-way at the core of this thread.

 

[donprice]

Deltalite II 2510

Deltalite II 2510 (10"), Pyle 612, Selenium D220Ti
~2 ft^3 vented box - used for HT center channel
crossover - HE LE14 variant (900 Hz lowpass)

~60 dB curves = pink noise

~85 dB curves = quick sweep

yellow/purple = HF normal phase

blue/green = HF reversed phase

Not sure if that drop off 500-1200 Hz is real or just an artifact of having the speaker on a carpeted floor.

Looks like it will work.

 

[skywave-rider]

Looks good.
Maybe the dropoff is a floorbounce/nearby reflection issue.

 

[Duffinator]

P.Schumacher suggested this sight when i asked for help .was thinking of a 3 or 4 way and when he asked me if i maybe interested in a 2 way, it sparked my interest.who's working on an ae 15"er ? would like all the details with results if the design has made it that far . if the ae's are the cat's meow and e-wave is the cat's meow , the combo should be one hell of a roar ! donc

Click the link in my signature to see what I did with JBL LE14H-3 woofs and JBL 2452H-SL CD's on PT waveguides.

 

[rage]

bms forte barzilay wave

Last night I paralleled my 1.5mh inductors to give me .75mh and installed those with 24uf capacitor on the woofer circuit.

It smoothed the crossover region around 1600hz considerably.

Also removed the compensation of .33 and now have a gentle roll off in the VHF with exception to that spike of 18-20k on the BMS driver.

Next parts to order are for the notch filter for that spike and the .75mh inductors.

So to me it appears the new crossover taylored to the DE250 seems to work pretty well with the BMS driver also. Will post some measurements up later.

This is the fourth set of econo-wave's I've screwed around with now... The original Dayton DC-250 + Selenium 220 is disassembled and those compression drivers went to a friend. We're working on his Aristocrat cabs with EV SP12s. I also disassembled my CV e-waves as I had a woofer with a rattle! The Forte woofer performs similarly but has a cleaner sounding mid range I believe.

 

[rkeman]

Zilch,
The econowave is very interesting and I am considering building four for a home theater. Can you answer a few questions regarding the standard and deluxe variants of the econowave?

1. Are there any waterfall plots available for the original econowave (DC300/Pyle or JBL waveguide/Selenium tweeter/PE trap box) similar to the deluxe version?
2. Are resistor values (or driver attenuation levels) for fixed "flat response" L pads available for the current crossovers for those not desiring a variable L pad?
3. What do you believe are the significant differences in performance between the standard and deluxe versions aside from cost and focusing on performance above 100Hz?

Thank you for helping to bring such a good DIY project to life!

 

[rage]

From Wayne Parham's chart:

dB - R1 - R2 - C3
=========================
06dB - 12 ohm - 30 ohm - 0.47uF
08dB - 12 ohm - 20 ohm - 0.47uF
10dB - 16 ohm - 16 ohm - 0.47uF
12dB - 25 ohm - 16 ohm - 0.47uF
14dB - 30 ohm - 14 ohm - 0.33uF
16dB - 40 ohm - 12 ohm - 0.33uF
18dB - 50 ohm - 12 ohm - 0.22uF
20dB - 75 ohm - 12 ohm - 0.22uF
=========================

Dayton DC250 with the Standard e-wave sounded good with 20db of attenuation. The 300 is a hair more efficient, so maybe 18db.

I'll let Zilch answer the rest!

 

[Zilch]

1. Are there any waterfall plots available for the original econowave (DC300/Pyle or JBL waveguide/Selenium tweeter/PE trap box) similar to the deluxe version?

I have all of that but need to build more trap cabs. I would be distrustful of any comparison unless they were done concurrently and under the same test conditions.

2. Are resistor values (or driver attenuation levels) for fixed "flat response" L pads available for the current crossovers for those not desiring a variable L pad?

The easiest answer is to use a variable to determine the resistor values that produce the balance desired. Adjusting the attenuation in the HF comp filter is a more complicated task, documented earlier in this thread.

3. What do you believe are the significant differences in performance between the standard and deluxe versions aside from cost and focusing on performance above 100Hz?

a) Deluxe trades off extended bass performance in exchange for "cleaner" bass and better mids.

b) The QSC is arguably a "better" waveguide on the basis of mouth roundover alone.

c) DE250's polyimide diaphragm is sonically smoother than D220's titanium.

d) The Deluxe crossover is optimized for the combination.

e) Are the differences huge? No, but in sum, the performance difference is worth the additional cost.

 

[von.ah]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-245

These Peerless woofers (mentioned earlier in the thread) look awful nice for the price. Dare I say, fancy.

Hoo boy! Just opened my box from PE, and I think I am going to be very happy with these bargain woofers. Build quality is decidedly high. They look and feel much better than the pictures can convey.

After a quick test with my office hlly T-amp and a little saxophone via Houston Person & Ron Carter "Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most," free-air, full-range nearfield is drop-dead awesome! I think I'll have no problems with midrange and this woofer.

Cannot wait to set them up in the ever-evolving Ewaves! :tresbon:

 

[rkeman]

Zilch and rage,
Thanks for the very helpful information. The QSC waveguides for the deluxe econowave are nearly out of stock (1 left) and more are not expected for some time, probably months according to the service personnel at QSC. The Pyle Pro PH 515 at Parts Express appears to be nearly identical, but it is difficult to be certain given the lack of detail on the QSC waveguide on their website. Perhaps someone could post the external dimensions of the QSC for comparison?

 

[Zilch]

14" x 10"

 

[donc]

who is working on an AE td15 waveguide ?

would like to know if there is a proven design or if someone is working on a design who would share all the details-crossover,cabinet,tweeter/horn combo . have two td15h's and ready to build. i am seeking answers not suggestions , i can buy and build but leave the technical and design aspect to the pros . donc

 

[Zilch]

There are several builds over on the AVS forum using the QSC waveguide and different compression drivers. They are trying to cross them actively using DCX2496, apparently without also having measurement capabilities.

The work Pete and I did on a passive crossover for the QSC and DE250 is the closest to what you desire, to the best of my knowledge. That's why I suggest using that as a starting point.

Alternatively, talk to Wayne Parham at Pi Speakers:

http://www.pispeakers.com/

He does not presently offer 4-Pi with TD15, but has very likely investigated the option.... :yes:

 

[tubino]

would like to know if there is a proven design or if someone is working on a design who would share all the details-crossover,cabinet,tweeter/horn combo . have two td15h's and ready to build. i am seeking answers not suggestions , i can buy and build but leave the technical and design aspect to the pros . donc

Donc, the TD15M will go up easily to the crossover point used by the Econowave, but I have doubts about the 15H -- which is designed to go LOWER than the 15M. I don't have an answer, but let those big drivers go low, and find something that will meet them instead of making them go over 1000 hz. I think a big compression driver and horn would do ya. Good luck, and I hope you find a solution.

 

[Bauhausler]

I'm just listening to music and fixing amps these days. I'll let you guys bang out the details. Ewaved DQ-10s sure sound fine.
Only 20+ more posts to hit 5 figures!

 

[Brett]

Donc, the TD15M will go up easily to the crossover point used by the Econowave, but I have doubts about the 15H -- which is designed to go LOWER than the 15M. I don't have an answer, but let those big drivers go low, and find something that will meet them instead of making them go over 1000 hz. I think a big compression driver and horn would do ya. Good luck, and I hope you find a solution.

It's the same driver, with the larger surround and a slightly different coil. With a minor hiccup around 500Hz, they seem to play out to past 1k nearly as nicely as the 15M.

Here is the 15X, which is the same as the H, except for the coil.
Drivervault TD15X FR

 

[similost]

would like to know if there is a proven design or if someone is working on a design who would share all the details-crossover,cabinet,tweeter/horn combo . have two td15h's and ready to build. i am seeking answers not suggestions , i can buy and build but leave the technical and design aspect to the pros . donc

I dropped you a PM...

If you go with a larger CD driver to keep up with the Lambda's, you will probably be crossing at a little lower point. Granted, then it becomes not the true guide project Zilch was working on, which was a very flat response, but you will have an amazing peir of speakers.

My M's play really low, and they hit those lows really hard. I can't imagine what it would be like with the H's... but as with the crossover I used, I crossed at 1200hz, and there are no isses with them playing very well up to that point.. I think even at 1600hz you should be very fine since they Lambda's are "supposed" to play very well up to 2000hz..

 

[Russellc]

OK, I've ordered the "new" deluxe crossover version. Now that I've just about wrapped up all the F-5 parts, I'm on to finishing the measuring system.
I have the Dayton mic, have loaded in my computer REW, Holmimpulse, RTA, and another one or two. I still need the M-audio mobile pre, and I'll be ready to attack that learning curve.

First thing on the agenda is working with this crossover to adjust it to the JBL 2235H, QSC and the B&C DE 250. One is laying on the floor now, waiting for batteries to charge to take pics of the bracing. I dont know if the QSC can be cut in without modification, we'll see. The original E'wave JBL guide will fit, so I assume the larger 2" non econo wave guide and BMS driver combo would. I'd like to use this QSC waveguide here!

Russellc