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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Didnt mean to bash them, and have stated they are fine for what they are, and their continueing popularity low these many years later certainly atests to that. The question was raised about comparing power response of the AR and the other JBL model to the econowave. What I stated is simple fact. The poster was seeking info on whether to get AR, JBL, or ECWG made up of LE14, one of the threads favs. In particular. "power response" was mentioned as a comparison point. While excellent speakers in their own right, they just cant compete in this comparison with that combination of ECWG, no?

Russellc

Thanks for being civil about this. I was asking because I've been reading the AR list on the classicspeakers site for a while now and they are True Believers in the 'power response' aspect of the AR speakers. I'm more realistic, and I do see them as 40 year old speakers which probably don't work as well as they did when new. I guess I should have asked for a comparison with something newer like a Thiel or Hales or whatever the latest-greatest 2 or 3 way dome-tweetered speaker is out there these days, but I don't have any of the 'new' speakers, just old stuff I mentioned. (My youngest pair of speakers are a pair of NHT Super Zeroes from 1992. My current living room speakers are Celestion Ditton 22s, a 3-way with 8" woofer, 5" mid and a dome tweeter.)

I'll see about those Heath LE14s - little space for more speakers and limited funds etc. I could also use the woofer section of the L166 (122a) with the EWG sitting on top.
 
Oh, sure and I agree. Zilch told me my beloved altec's would be smoked by econowave and I similarly balked. But, he was right. I still love my Altecs
and am not quite ready to dispense with them,:no: but they are what they are, and are not what they arent! Same way with the mentioned speakers, popular vintage pieces, but when people wonder about power response and so forth of these antiquities when compared to Econowave made from LE14 and ECWG on top, well its true. One can enjoy them for what they are, but a WHOLE lot of what they arent is revealed in an actual listening comparison. As stated it will be absolutely no contest, period. those two golden oldies will be whipped proper:D

Russellc


I understand where you are coming from. I still bet that an awful lot of people could listen to both back to back and prefer the vintage speakers. :)
 
Well now that KLH was at least mentioned in the recent 'vintage' discussion of this wonderful thread, I'll ask my noob question.
Would the KLH 23's be a good candidate for EWG implementation? How would they change the network requirements?
I have a solid pair of 23's not being used, as their cabinets need refreshing, and my 2ax's have the nicest (looking x sounding) value currently.
If the EWG route is favorable for the 23's, I may jump on it. :D
Thanks, gents!
 
Holy level mismatch, Batman!

Well, this morning I dragged out some gear so I could experiment with the EWG on top of an AR3 cab and woofer.
I'm running this mono. No passive crossover or CD compensation. I have a Rane AC22 crossover running in Mono mode. This allows me to independently control the low/mid and mid/high crossover points. I'm not using the mid signal, so I can have the high and low overlap or have a gap between. For 'compensation' I just have the preamp's treble turned up 2 notches and the turnover set at 5Khz.
This particular AR woofer has a pretty drastic peak at 800 hz and very little above that. I have the crossover points set fairly low for that reason.
There's a HUGE difference in sensitivity, like probably 25 dbs at least.
Next I'll try one of the Large Advents & see how that sounds.
 

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Well now that KLH was at least mentioned in the recent 'vintage' discussion of this wonderful thread, I'll ask my noob question.
Would the KLH 23's be a good candidate for EWG implementation? How would they change the network requirements?
Generally, EconoWave will work with just about any woofer capable of playing nicely up into the 1.2 - 1.5 kHz range. Start with the standard E'Wave crossover. Optimizing for any particular woofer is a simple matter of adjusting two components in the lowpass filter section to taste. Kegger changed the capacitor value, not by much, and added a Zobel, to get his HPM-100 woofers playing "right."

Think of E'Wave as a modern high-frequency "module," complete with crossover. Plug in the woofer-in-a-box of your choice, and it will play, very likely better than you might imagine. Few AKers have ever heard anything quite like EconoWave.... :thmbsp:

Thanks for being civil about this. I was asking because I've been reading the AR list on the classicspeakers site for a while now and they are True Believers in the 'power response' aspect of the AR speakers.
Has anyone actually measured the polar response of AR3s, or are they playing "Let's Pretend" over there? :dunno:
 
I just switched over from the AR3 woofer/cab to a KLH 32, which is a sealed 8" 2-way. This woofer has much better upper end response but gives up an octave at the bottom compared to the AR. It mated much better to the horn.

If I get a chance today I'll build up the 'proper' EWG passive XO, low sensitivity version, so I'll have the benefit of the FR EQ for the EWG.
 
Speakergeek FUN!

I just switched over from the AR3 woofer/cab to a KLH 32, which is a sealed 8" 2-way. This woofer has much better upper end response but gives up an octave at the bottom compared to the AR. It mated much better to the horn.

If I get a chance today I'll build up the 'proper' EWG passive XO, low sensitivity version, so I'll have the benefit of the FR EQ for the EWG.
With a suitable lowpass, it sounds like you might get AR3's woofer to work. I'll try to get some more measurements on the AR1 woofer, which is still here.

E'Wave has a HUGE efficiency advantage over typical acoustic suspension woofers. The HF compensation uses ~10 dB of that, and the balance is padded out in the filter.

Passive biamped, the HF will run on flea power. We're talking orders of magnitude here, 10X, 100X, even.... :yes:
 
With a suitable lowpass, it sounds like you may get AR3's woofer to work. I'll try to get some more measurements on the AR1 woofer, which is still here.

E'Wave has a HUGE efficiency advantage over typical acoustic suspension woofers. The HF compensation uses ~10 dB of that, and the balance is padded out in the filter.

Passive biamped, the HF will run on flea power. We're talking orders of magnitude here, 10X, 100X, even.... :yes:

I was driving it with a 150WPC Accuphase P-300, which has power meters. I have the meters switched to -20db and the needle is barely hitting the -20 mark on the meter. That means peaks of around... 15mw??
 
This particular AR woofer has a pretty drastic peak at 800 hz and very little above that. I have the crossover points set fairly low for that reason.
There's a HUGE difference in sensitivity, like probably 25 dbs at least.
Next I'll try one of the Large Advents & see how that sounds.

That AR woofer has the wrong dustcap... that's the reason for its, frankly, f***ed up top end response.

Those are supposed to have a much smaller screen or felt dustcap... about 2.5 or 3" diameter, instead of that ~4.25" paper cap...

If it's a subject for experimentation, try cutting off the dustcap, and measuring it without a cap at all. Bet it'll smooth out a bit. If so, try a 3" or so felt dustcap (available at most any speaker recone shop, for PA or home audio- and if you can't find them elsewhere, I got 'em here)...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I was driving it with a 150WPC Accuphase P-300, which has power meters. I have the meters switched to -20db and the needle is barely hitting the -20 mark on the meter. That means peaks of around... 15mw??
Well, you'll not have any difficulty filling that oversize room with sound, then.... :p:
 
I bow down, in respect...

You guys are amazing - I simply ask about the AR3 and next thing I know you've got one set up with the EWG and are testing it out!

I've got 4 EPI 8 inch woofers and a spare 2 cubic foot box I could try out as an MTM with the EWG, but I know it would take me about 6 months of hand-wringing before I got started, and then possibly not finish it off. I've also got 4 Small Advents I could try out - pretty sure those woofers go out to 1000Hz or so.
 
You guys are amazing - I simply ask about the AR3 and next thing I know you've got one set up with the EWG and are testing it out!
Heh, heh.

We're in RELENTLESS pursuit of truth, enlightenment, and the AudioKarma way here! :p:

I've also got 4 Small Advents I could try out - pretty sure those woofers go out to 1000Hz or so.
Yup. :thmbsp:
 
That AR woofer has the wrong dustcap... that's the reason for its, frankly, f***ed up top end response.

Those are supposed to have a much smaller screen or felt dustcap... about 2.5 or 3" diameter, instead of that ~4.25" paper cap...

If it's a subject for experimentation, try cutting off the dustcap, and measuring it without a cap at all. Bet it'll smooth out a bit. If so, try a 3" or so felt dustcap (available at most any speaker recone shop, for PA or home audio- and if you can't find them elsewhere, I got 'em here)...

Regards,
Gordon.

I'm not particularly interested in converting the ARs to EWG. Think about it. Once you had it balanced out you'd have great bottom end but the sensitivity would be lousy. No better than an AR3, and tha tgives away a major advantage of horn based systems. You'd be throwing away literally 99% of the top end energy to drag the horn down to the efficiency of the woofer.

I'd rather convert to EWG something with a more sensitive woofer to start with and if necessary run the AR woofers/cabs separately amped as subs. I like the idea of the fast, sensitive LE10A/EWG system or Large Advent/EWG system that I could fill out on the bottom (literally and figuratively) with AR woofers/cabs in the bottom 2 octaves.
 
I'm not particularly interested in converting the ARs to EWG. Think about it. Once you had it balanced out you'd have great bottom end but the sensitivity would be lousy. No better than an AR3, and tha tgives away a major advantage of horn based systems. You'd be throwing away literally 99% of the top end energy to drag the horn down to the efficiency of the woofer.

I'd rather convert to EWG something with a more sensitive woofer to start with and if necessary run the AR woofers/cabs separately amped as subs. I like the idea of the fast, sensitive LE10A/EWG system or Large Advent/EWG system that I could fill out on the bottom (literally and figuratively) with AR woofers/cabs in the bottom 2 octaves.

Agree with you there Ross, I pretty much run tube amps exclusivly in the main system and want some
decent sensitivity plus the grerat dynamics high sensitivity brings as well, I hate having to throw away
all the great performance of a driver just to mate up to a much less sensitive one, sometimes it can not
be helped but when your doing a new design I think that should be a major consideration.

(For experimenting though anything is fair game) :)
 
R/R/C top-octave compensation

At least put a simple R||C compensation filter in series with them like Tom Brennan uses on his Altecs. Probably $10 for the pair, max.... :yes:

Be careful when using a series attenuator made from a single resistor in parallel with a bypass capacitor for top octave compensation. To get enough attenuation to match a horn tweeter with a direct radiating midwoofer, the series resistor has to be made large enough to seriously underdamp the crossover filter. What the builder generally does when going at this approach by ear is to attenuate the average passband level to psychoacoustically make up for that initial peak.

A person can install a traditional L-Pad, which has a series resistor followed by a shunt resistor, making a voltage divider with source impedance equal to what the crossover filter load is designed for. However, this is generally too thin sounding, because it doesn't conjugate the power response of the driver.

When you turn the L-Pad around, having shunt resistance first, you can set the amount of damping with it. A slightly underdamped filter works perfect, because it provides a slight amount of peaking near the crossover frequency. The cap bypassed series resistor (and the inductive/resistive complex load of the driver) forms rising response which would make a diagonal line starting at the crossover frequency if it weren't for the slighty underdamped high-pass filter. The two features tend to form a curve that has an initial flat region followed by a region of rising response. This is a conjugate of the driver's power response, which is what you get from a CD horn, so the result is nice flat response at all angles in the horn's pattern.

There are some variations between drivers and horns, naturally. But what I've found is that differences in drivers tend to be mostly in the nature of breakup modes and voltage sensitivity. The differences in CD horns are mostly at the frequency extremes, where directivity is affected by throat and mouth features. Acoustic loading is an issue down low too.

Some drivers will have more energy up high due to breakup, and some will have less energy but smoother response. The crossover can't do much about those, nor should it in my opinion. I suppose you could try to tame HF breakup with notch filters but I think that's overcomplicated and counterproductive.

To avoid ripple at low frequency, simply crossover above the point where the ripples are. That avoids diaphragm resonance and the first 1/4 wave mode.

As for voltage sensitivity, that's really the easy part. The midwoofer and tweeter have to be level matched anyway. I don't consider 10dB attenuation to be a problem because you need that for proper top octave compensation. You still get all the benefits of horn loading, i.e. increased dynamic range, reduced distortion and directivity control. I don't know that I would want to use a woofer that required 20dB horn attenuation, but that's because I want a more sensitive loudspeaker than that. It's easy to find suitable midwoofers with sensitivity around 95dB/M/2.83v, give or take a few decibels.

So to me, the R/R/C approach works very well and turns out to be an almost generic solution. As long as crossover is done above the frequency where the horn becomes effective, the low end is right. Above that, all drivers share a similar power response curve so as long as the horn is CD, the compensation curve is the same for all of them. About the only thing you have to set is baseline attenuation, which can be obtained from a chart of R1/R2/C1 values.

 
Thank you, Wayne, for providing additional insight here. :thmbsp:

Cap on a conventional L-Pad has a further problem: If you turn it to max attenuation, it's a short to common.... :p:
 
Mini Wave Guides Revisted

I have done some more work on my mini WG, JBL L26 cabinet projects. The 2418H driver has been replaced with the Selenium 210ti's. The 2418's did seem a bit harsh and hard to tame with the 7k peaks, etc. With an EQ they were OK. The 210's however were a much more musical speaker driver for this application. Just a lot smoother sounding and relatively simple to integrate. I used the xover for the Selenium from page 13 of this thread and it worked very well! This is a good, affoardable driver to use and matched very well with the 10" woofers in this design- especially at the 3k xover!

These have real punch and are amazing to listen to. A lot of good solid sound in such a small box. My friends came back over a gave another listen and agreed the 210's were a distinct improvement when A/B between the drivers!

This project met the desin goals I had in mind. I built a relatively small, very affoadable 2 way speaker set with high output, well under $200 that sounded very good. I finished these off with a fine mesh round screen over the woofers for a simple look. If high output is needed, space is a concern this is the way go.
DC
 
Thanks for the update, DC. :yes:

In detail, the optimum compensation contour for each driver/horn/waveguide combination is different, and while, ultimately, it could be worked out for 2418H, you can see from the early pages of this thread what effort is necessary to accomplish that task.

While Geddes tells us that compression drivers are "commodities" and in many respects all alike, fact is, even after the frequency response is normalized, different drivers, particularly from different manufacturers, have different sonic characters, and some are just more appropriate for certain applications.

Many AKers had already reported that the Seleniums sounded good before Jack and I began working with them, and they checked out. There do appear to be occasional QC issues, but these are easily managed via AK sponsor PE's liberal return/exchange policies. It's certainly hard to beat the price and quality of the result using this design.

May we see some more pics of your finished design, please, for the E'Wave record? :thmbsp:
 
Econowave JBL L26 Type "Mini's"

Here are the requested pics.
Thanks again for the support and idea for the project- AudioKarma is truly a great place to forward and discover audio ideas!
DC
 
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