Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[donprice]

I will be crossing the LCR to the sub at 80Hz but I do want that mid-upper bass punch that only larger drivers can provide.

I can squeeze in an 11" tall cabinet on the TV stand. I can then make the cabinet wider or deeper to maintain the same internal box volume. /QUOTE]

I wouldn't worry too much about getting a lot of punch out of the LCR since it is mostly dialog anyway. Set it to "small" since your height limitations pretty much makes it a small speaker anyway when stacking the drivers. So, the question becomes, how do we make the Delite 12 get small? Get the little brothers and sisters?

Alphalite 6A http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-680s.pdf

and

B&C DE-10-8 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-600 (this pick saves ~$80 over the DE250 but needs to cross over higher (~2500Hz?) which isn't much of a problem for the 6.5" driver).

and a small (6x6?) bolt-on waveguide...I'm drawing a blank for a specific model.

That and a new crossover should make for a mean little eWave center channel or surround speaker.

Of course mounting 2 x 6" drivers in 11" will be a challenge. Overlap the flanges, trim the waveguide, and let the flanges extend to the edge of the 11" cabinet. It just might work. Or modify whatever the TV is on to make something bigger fit.:thmbsp:

My holiday weekend started a couple hours ago so please excuse any gaps in the 3-beer engineering process.

 

[bwaslo]

Another batch of measurements

OK, here are some measurements of the trap cabinet Ewave using the 4x 5.25" woofers. First pic is the speaker setup again.

Then, the crossover I came up with for it, see below. It seems to have left some lower midrange emphasis, but soundwise it doesn't seem apparent. More work likely will be done on that, though.

Next picture is the set of horizontal curves -- those seem pretty reasonable. The falling upper treble is on-purpose, the waveguides sound a little bright to me otherwise.

Next is the verticals, with the mic going below the "listening axis" (which is where the waveguide sits with its top a little below ear level). That doesn't look too good, something bad happening around the crossover point. I think that the backwave from the woofers bouncing off the back of the cabinet might be finding its way forward and out again. There's some polyfill in the box, but not a lot. I didn't want to mess up the bass. I want to try to put a piece of acoustical tile inside the cab right behind the upper woofers, but can't seem to find anywhere to buy anything less than a cratefull of tiles!

Last is the verticals with the mic going above the listening axis. Not too bad, but it seems my earlier interpretation that the waveguides were losing directivity above the crossover point doesn't seem true after all. The setup could now stand some vertical directivity from the woofers. Maybe the BSC inductor should be done to all four woofers so that the array can generate some lower frequency directivity.

I bought a big 100sq foot roll of mahogany veneer (cheap, off ebay) and plan to cover with that, though probably not before the Dayton show.

 

[truth seeker]

Bwaslo posted:
I want to try to put a piece of acoustical tile inside the cab right behind the upper woofers, but can't seem to find anywhere to buy anything less than a cratefull of tiles!

I think that is a good idea.

My solution to this is to visit Lowe's (or other "big box" store) and find a package already open. Frequently there are individual pieces which have been passed over by others. These pieces are dinged on a corner or "damaged" in some other, cosmetic way. Take these to the sales associate and "offer" to get them out of the store for them...I last bought 4 entirely useful tiles for $2 each.

I'll see you in Dayton. I'm working through the weekend to finish my E-Wave Delites

 

[1scienceguy]

I think that is a good idea.

My solution to this is to visit Lowe's (or other "big box" store) and find a package already open. Frequently there are individual pieces which have been passed over by others. These pieces are dinged on a corner or "damaged" in some other, cosmetic way. Take these to the sales associate and "offer" to get them out of the store for them...I last bought 4 entirely useful tiles for $2 each.

I'll see you in Dayton. I'm working through the weekend to finish my E-Wave Delites

Which ones at Lowe's are you talking about? The ones for a drop down ceiling?

Thanks

 

[bwaslo]

My solution to this is to visit Lowe's (or other "big box" store) and find a package already open. Frequently there are individual pieces which have been passed over by others. These pieces are dinged on a corner or "damaged" in some other, cosmetic way. Take these to the sales associate and "offer" to get them out of the store for them...I last bought 4 entirely useful tiles for $2 each.

The associates at your Lowes seem to be more accommodating than at mine. Here, they have stickers on every shelf saying "sold in boxes only" and the associate claims lack of authority to do otherwise, even though there are a dozen or so unboxed panels lying around.

I'll see you in Dayton. I'm working through the weekend to finish my E-Wave Delites

Are you going to enter your Delites in the competition?

 

[bwaslo]

Which ones at Lowe's are you talking about? The ones for a drop down ceiling?

Those are the types I was thinking of. Acoustical tiles, that have a given sound deadening rating (0.55 is what I saw at Lowes).

 

[juniorJBL]

Try to look for sound board. It comes in 4X8 sheets and is basically the same thing without the white pattern on it.:thmbsp:

about $7 per sheet. It will be tan in color. I put this on all of my walls in my shop instead of drywall.:yes:

 

[bwaslo]

Built-in Toe-in?

I've been listening to the pair of ewave's and find that the sharp toe-in is really essential to getting the wide sweet spot. The arrangement works very well. About 45 degree toe-in works nicely even with me sitting to the side in front of one of the speakers, and speakers the same distance apart as I am from the one. It is very difficult to tell where the speakers are, with eyes closed and they image like crazy.

One thing I don't like is cosmetic -- they look really funny in the room positioned that way. Has anyone made cabinets that have the toe-in "built-in"? In other words, where the cabinet appears to face more or less forward, but the drivers fire off diagonally, probably hidden under a grille? That might make them a little more room compatible in a visual way....

 

[bwaslo]

Try to look for sound board. It comes in 4X8 sheets and is basically the same thing without the white pattern on it.:thmbsp:

about $7 per sheet. It will be tan in color. I put this on all of my walls in my shop instead of drywall.:yes:

Where did you get it?

 

[Russellc]

I've been listening to the pair of ewave's and find that the sharp toe-in is really essential to getting the wide sweet spot. The arrangement works very well. About 45 degree toe-in works nicely even with me sitting to the side in front of one of the speakers, and speakers the same distance apart as I am from the one. It is very difficult to tell where the speakers are, with eyes closed and they image like crazy.

One thing I don't like is cosmetic -- they look really funny in the room positioned that way. Has anyone made cabinets that have the toe-in "built-in"? In other words, where the cabinet appears to face more or less forward, but the drivers fire off diagonally, probably hidden under a grille? That might make them a little more room compatible in a visual way....

I have found the same thing concerning imaging and tow in. You'll find discussions on that somewhere in this gigantic thread.
I dont if it was 45 degrees or not, I usually have them so the point they cross is just in front of the listening position, this is likely very room dependent.

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

I've been listening to the pair of ewave's and find that the sharp toe-in is really essential to getting the wide sweet spot. The arrangement works very well. About 45 degree toe-in works nicely even with me sitting to the side in front of one of the speakers, and speakers the same distance apart as I am from the one. It is very difficult to tell where the speakers are, with eyes closed and they image like crazy.

One thing I don't like is cosmetic -- they look really funny in the room positioned that way. Has anyone made cabinets that have the toe-in "built-in"? In other words, where the cabinet appears to face more or less forward, but the drivers fire off diagonally, probably hidden under a grille? That might make them a little more room compatible in a visual way....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78557.0

700211/11141=62.8499​

 

[bwaslo]

Zilch, thanks for the link. That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I note he even uses the Econowaveguide standard guide! I'm thinking of trying something like this with the QSC horns, B&C drivers and those JBL 123A woofers I picked up.

Except I can't say I like the cosmetics he used -- I'd put a corner shaped grill on it to make the box appear rectangluar. And maybe build out the baffle area below the woofer to utilize that space.

First things first, though. I still need to finish up the current project first, do some veneering on these boxes, see if I can do that without messing up anything too bad.

 

[Russellc]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78557.0

700211/11141=62.8499​

I've seen that wave guide SOMEWHERE before!

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

I've seen that wave guide SOMEWHERE before!

[Duke didn't listen to Earl either, apparently.... ]

 

[hhibrownsbac]

Im hoping someone can point me in the right direction here. I am considering another build and have a set of HF drivers that I definitely want to use if at all possible BUT they have a 2" throat diameter. Any idea on who makes or where I can find waveguides for these?

 

[truth seeker]

bwaslo posted:
Are you going to enter your Delites in the competition?

Yes, even if I don't get the finish work done. The carcasses ARE done.

Veneer is on the backs and sides...front and top remain

*add panel stiffeners
*install fiberglass (as above) & polyfill, equivalent to ~0.65 lb/cf, upper half
*mount crossovers & pot
*route the edges, sand
*lacquer the quartered sycamore & oil the cherry
*don't forget the mounting screws
the grills will have to wait, though I am installing neo magnets under the veneer to hold them.

I never do things the easy way

I've got a long day tomorrow to stay ahead of the schedule.

My hope is for someone to have measuring gear set up to "dial in" the DE250. The room we'll be in has "issues".

 

[bwaslo]

TS-er --
Barring a miracle, mine won't have any finish work done at all other than sanding. They are working, though.

I think we can be pretty sure there will be some measuring gear there.

 

[juniorJBL]

Where did you get it?

Lowes or HomeDepot

 

[bwaslo]

speaker photos

Here are some shots of the assembly of the other speaker. I redid the crossover and got the on-axis very smooth between 1kHz and 3kHz where it had some bumps before. Haven't had a chance to rerun the off-axis curves yet, but here are some shots of the speakers themselves.

Try to imagine them in a figured mahogany finish (but applied by a veneering amateur!).

Those of you coming to the Midwest Audiofest next weekend will get a chance to hear these and Truthseeker's Delites, which I'm really looking forward to.

Here's what I'm thinking of for the next build:

Building the toe-in into the box.

fun with audio
Woofer to be JBL 123A-1, waveguide to be the rectangular QSC with DE250 driver.
I still have those Advent Maestro cabinets and woofers, not sure what to do with those now...

 

[4343]

...
I still have those Advent Maestro cabinets and woofers, not sure what to do with those now...

You KNOW they NEED to be Waved! Will the QSC fit? I remember the Maestro being pretty shallow.

I've got my Deluxe pair running now, using 2214H's, it's hard to go back to std...