Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
My thought on what might be the best compromise, for bottom end response and top-end midrange quality, leads me to the JBL 2234. 2235 without the mass ring. Sure, it's not going to go as low as a 2235... but probably a bit lower than an Altec 416. And it DEFINITELY can go up to 1KHz without issues... as it does in the JBL 4435 studio monitor.
As for the 411- I really don't think there is, realistically, a hill of beans difference between it and the 2235, to my ears. The 2235 probably handles more power... that's probably the most significant issue separating them...
Regards,
Gordon.
Just a quick picture of where I am. This is one of the Valencias with the 1.2K, 3K E-Wave crossover dated 3-18-08 that Jack posted installed with a 210 driving the wave. The woofer circuit was tweaked for the 16 ohm 416Z. It sits on an about 16" hollow riser that should take the cabinet volume up to about 8 ft3 via a large cutout in the base of the Valencia. I've got it hooked up with the other Valencia sitting on an apple box about the same height with one of Keg's Selenium bullet tweeters added in via a 2 uf cap as a supertweeter. They sound fairly close to me, but Cindy says the E wave one is bassier and the supertweeter one is tweetier. I pretty much agree, but the Ewave seems a bit smoother with less extension than the tweetered Val, but loses a bit of magic in the mids; just not as engaging. Very close but not quite there.
The cardboard covers a 5" x 9" port which seemed to have little effect, although I was not able to seal off the stock venting along the top edge of the 811B effectively. Keg suggested we just tape the port shut and use the stock porting.
This is all just rough mockup prototypes in some faint hope to extract some deeper bass w/o sacrificing much of the mids. Just playing with shop scraps to get a feel for what could be done, but so far the results don't live up to the effort aside from the 8 ft3 cab sounding much "bigger" than the stock cab, sort of a wall vs. a point source. I know the Ewave is too far from the 416, but holding it lower makes only slight changes to the sound.
The cardboard covers a 5" x 9" port which seemed to have little effect, although I was not able to seal off the stock venting along the top edge of the 811B effectively. Keg suggested we just tape the port shut and use the stock porting.
This is all just rough mockup prototypes in some faint hope to extract some deeper bass w/o sacrificing much of the mids. Just playing with shop scraps to get a feel for what could be done, but so far the results don't live up to the effort aside from the 8 ft3 cab sounding much "bigger" than the stock cab, sort of a wall vs. a point source. I know the Ewave is too far from the 416, but holding it lower makes only slight changes to the sound.
Attachments
That certainly doesn't happen with either 2225H or 2235H:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2225.htm
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2235.htm
What compensation are you using on the 811B? If it's the stock Altec crossover, the "magic" mids are artifically boosted, is what, and commonly characterized as "shouty."
If you like that, it's fine, but E'Wave is flat, and don't play that, nope.
If you want a reasonable comparison, remove the 811B and install a plywood flat with E'Wave mounted on it, closing the upper ports. Then, make a plywood cover for your port in the bottom with several ducts in it. Close one or more of the ports to vary the box tuning. Measure it.
Your bottom box must be sealed to the bottom of the Val. Use closed-cell foam weatherstrip to accomplish that. The weight of the Val should make an adequate seal.
I'll repeat the same message I've posted many times: you can't do this stuff without measurement gear. Y'all in that group should pool some funds and get the Behringer RTA to share. A LHF member bought a used one on eBay for $125, with mic.... :yes:
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
It's a cool experiment, though. Another thing I've been wanting to do with my old Altecs is to try the Econowave on them. For me it's easier, turn the 9844 on its side, presto, vertical dual woofer and probably get the waveguide close enough. Don't worry, I'll get to it.....
Sounds like some great direction; I'll give it a shot. Well, all except the measure it part. Maybe you're right and we can get a couple SMAC'ers here to chip in on one; we certainly bought enough E-Waves and D210s
It's unfortunate there's a big hole in the bottom of the Val, 'cause it could be flipped over and E'Wave just set on top.
I s'pose the hole could be "undone" to try that....
It's unfortunate there's a big hole in the bottom of the Val, 'cause it could be flipped over and E'Wave just set on top.
I s'pose the hole could be "undone" to try that....
Actually, it can be seeing as I still have the cutout.
Gimmee 20 minutes....
OK, so it was more than 20...
Here's the Australian version. I spent a while listening and noted a few things.
1)The Ewave version is more efficient as the raised crossover to 1200 Hz seems to push more sound into the 416Z thus making more volume. In mono listening sessions, I had to roll the Balance to about 2 o'clock favoring the standard Val to get the image centered between the two.
2) It does sound good. The mids are still there and rich, but maybe more balanced overall due to the crossover change. The highs are definitely better than the 811B/8906A combo, and smoother by a hair over the supertweeter version. Not as edgy.
3) Going back to the original Val cab size (I lost the riser as cabinet volume when I rolled the cab), did cost some bass or at least "size" to the system; it's no longer the "bigger" sound. But these results are encouraging enough for me to pursue Zilch's suggestions of sealing the riser better, pulling the 811B and mounting the E-Wave on a sealed plate and experimenting with port sizes. More to follow this weekend.
Here's the Aussie version now. The cutout actually fit fairly snug, but I taped it just to tighten it up a bit.
Here's the Australian version. I spent a while listening and noted a few things.
1)The Ewave version is more efficient as the raised crossover to 1200 Hz seems to push more sound into the 416Z thus making more volume. In mono listening sessions, I had to roll the Balance to about 2 o'clock favoring the standard Val to get the image centered between the two.
2) It does sound good. The mids are still there and rich, but maybe more balanced overall due to the crossover change. The highs are definitely better than the 811B/8906A combo, and smoother by a hair over the supertweeter version. Not as edgy.
3) Going back to the original Val cab size (I lost the riser as cabinet volume when I rolled the cab), did cost some bass or at least "size" to the system; it's no longer the "bigger" sound. But these results are encouraging enough for me to pursue Zilch's suggestions of sealing the riser better, pulling the 811B and mounting the E-Wave on a sealed plate and experimenting with port sizes. More to follow this weekend.
Here's the Aussie version now. The cutout actually fit fairly snug, but I taped it just to tighten it up a bit.
Attachments
NOW yer cookin'!
That looks much more like the E'Wave we know and love.
[Nobody's believin' this, y'know....
: ]Expand the knowledge base, Dave.
Let's figure this stuff out.... :thmbsp:
Here are my ESS EWGs. I took the Heil off and put on the EWG and fired them up. They sound great and I am not sure if I need to do a crossover. The pots on the crossovers are for the tweeter only so I can pad down the bump with the midrange pot. The highpot is just fine in the middle. These really sound fantastic.....and they look kinda cool too. I'll keep listening and see. Maybe get the SMACers over to help listen. Cheers.
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OK, so they are still a little shouty so I guess I will be building crossovers. The passive radiator is gone on both cabs and the bass is still tight as hell and LOOOOOWWW(the replacement PRs are only $30.00). I am driving them with my Adcom and can only turn it up to a quarter before I get blown out. Very cool speakers.
Yep the covers still fit. The PRs are not leaking, they are not there. It is just a 12" hole with a steel ring around the hole. I am going to flip the ESS crossovers and order the EWG crossovers. Extremely good bass responce without the PRs, can't wait to fix those and listen to them. Cheers.
Dennis - I am reusing some inductors from AR xovers for my Ewave xovers. If you can find out the ratings of the ones in the ESS xovers, maybe you could re-use them, too. Maybe you'd do better flipping them, I don't know. I am also planning on unwinding one of my inductors a little, and plan on buying a LCR Meter, so if yuo want to borrow it, I'd be happy to help you out.
I'd call that a pretty big leak, then.
You're running the woofs open baffle, essentially, and can easily run into their excursion limits feeding them much bass.... :yes: