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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Is there any kind of size limitation to the Econowave conversion? Would a small set of 2-way bookshelf speakers a be possible candidate for this?

I have a set of Tangent T-10's that I'm thinking of selling... but I don't expect I'd get very much for them. And then I thought that perhaps it would be better to modify them. Does the fact that they already have a horn tweeter provide an advantage?

Tangent-T10.jpg


Specifications
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 75Hz-20kHz(+-)3dB
POWER HANDLING 100: watts maximum continuous (500 watts peak)
SENSITIVITY: 94dB @ 1watt/1meter
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms
TWEETER: K-76-K 1" (2.54cm) Phenolic dome compression driver
HIGH FREQUENCY HORN 90(o)x40(o): Exponential Horn
WOOFER: K-7-K 8" (20.32cm) Fiber-composite cone
ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: Medium density fiberboard construction (MDF)
ENCLOSURE TYPE: Sealed
DIMENSIONS: 16.25" (41.3cm) x 11.5" (29.2cm) x 8.25" (21cm)
WEIGHT 18.5 lbs. (8.4kg)
 
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Thank you, Zilch. :)

6" square may not work with these cabs, unfortunately... but I'll read up on that Ewave mini thread to see about other possibilities... Top mounted would be interesting. The speaker covers are peculiar in that they wrap up and across the top, and that might actually make it easier to blend the top mounting in.
 
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I have a pair of Klipsch KG 5.5s in "semi-retirement"; just got tired of the forward, "horn colored" treble. I've considered possibly trying a conversion to an Econowave. The KG 5.5s consist of one Tractrix horn plus 2 X 10" woofers in a large ported box. I really hate to cut up a nice commercial speaker and mess up any resale value though, so I'd really like to find a waveguide that will fit in the current horn cutout, so far I haven't found one that will. I could always try it out with the new horn sitting on top first if I had to do some cutting, but it would have to be a clear, significant improvement before I'd be happy doing such an extreme, irreversible mod. All the Klipsch fans say just to get the titanium diaphragm upgrade and crossover upgrade from Bob Crites, but I'm not convinced that will correct what I dislike about it.

Anybody here convert a Klipsch Tractrix horn speaker to an Econowave?
 
Doc Rock said:
Anybody here convert a Klipsch Tractrix horn speaker to an Econowave?
Click to expand...
A pic of the baffle and some rudimentary baffle dimensions would help.

While I have no data to substantiate it in this instance, but tractrix profile is generally not constant directivity. My standard recommendation is to build up the EconoWave module, set on top, connect to the existing woofers, and have a listen.

That should tell you whether the change is worthwhile, and if not, nobody has yet experienced difficulty in reselling the components here on AK....

Edit: http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/kg-5-5-overview/

The 18-Sound XT1086 elliptical is 10.25" x 8.5":

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1639915#post1639915
 
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Bummer... those XD120 drivers are sold out (discontinued), even though the posting about them was just a month ago. Excellent price at @$30 a piece. The successor, XD125, is $75 a piece. :(


Zilch, what do you think about Dayton H45E 4.5" square waveguide? Would it be sufficient for the Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8? Or should I get something like the Dayton H07E 6" square waveguide and cut partially into the bottom to make room for the woofer? The H07E has a recommended 2.2 kHz crossover frequency, while the H45E has 3.5 kHz.
 
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myu701 said:
Bummer... those XD120 drivers are sold out (discontinued), even though the posting about them was just a month ago. Excellent price at @$30 a piece. The successor, XD125, is $75 a piece. :(
Click to expand...
That's less than D2500Ti-Nd alone, actually.

The vertical dimension is just under 6", so either way you go, it's going to require reworking the front baffles. We upgraded KLH17s with H07E, and that worked, but at 5.875", it's the same deal baffle-space-wise.... :dunno:
 
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Zilch said:
That's less than D2500Ti-Nd alone, actually.
Click to expand...
Yes, the D2500Ti-Nd is $78.75 on PE... so, fairly close. The XD125 comes with the waveguide included, however it doesn't have a titanium diaphragm and the power rating is only 25W AES. The Selenium seems to be the better choice; not worth skimping on such an important part.

Zilch said:
The vertical dimension is just under 6", so either way you go, it's going to require reworking the front baffles. We upgraded KLH17s with H07E, and that worked, but at 5.875", it's the same deal baffle-space-wise.... :dunno:
Click to expand...
From what I saw in PE, the Dayton H45E vertical dimension is 4.5". If the lip extends a bit lower, it'll probably need to be trimmed but not as much. Right? Or did you mean that for frequency crossover considerations, I'll still have to go with the 6" model?
 
skywave-rider said:
I think a ton of people are building EWaves.
Click to expand...
It's interesting, phenomenologically; there are several forums which have not yet "discovered" EconoWave.

Now closing in on three years, I'd say it's fair to conclude that, conceptually, eWave is sustainable: it does not suck.... :thmbsp:


myu701 said:
From what I saw in PE, the Dayton H45E vertical dimension is 4.5". If the lip extends a bit lower, it'll probably need to be trimmed but not as much. Right? Or did you mean that for frequency crossover considerations, I'll still have to go with the 6" model?
Click to expand...
3.5 kHz is more suited to a smaller woofer. I doubt if an 8" acoustic suspension is going to get there competently, and even if so, there are beamwidth issues in matching the two.
 
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Doc Rock said:
I have a pair of Klipsch KG 5.5s in "semi-retirement"; just got tired of the forward, "horn colored" treble. I've considered possibly trying a conversion to an Econowave. The KG 5.5s consist of one Tractrix horn plus 2 X 10" woofers in a large ported box. I really hate to cut up a nice commercial speaker and mess up any resale value though, so I'd really like to find a waveguide that will fit in the current horn cutout, so far I haven't found one that will. I could always try it out with the new horn sitting on top first if I had to do some cutting, but it would have to be a clear, significant improvement before I'd be happy doing such an extreme, irreversible mod. All the Klipsch fans say just to get the titanium diaphragm upgrade and crossover upgrade from Bob Crites, but I'm not convinced that will correct what I dislike about it.

Anybody here convert a Klipsch Tractrix horn speaker to an Econowave?
Click to expand...

I did the Crites Ti diaphragm upgrade to my 5.5's and though it helped with the shrill nature of the factory pieces, it didn't refine the Tractrix horn to the degree I was hoping. Still seems to have a cold midrange...like there is a gap there. I really like the bottom end on the 5.5's and would love to find something to improve them in the mid and high-end. I hadn't considered ditching the Tractrix horn entirely. I'm curious to see what comes of this.
 
Are the two woofers in 5.5 simply running in parallel, or is the bottom one operating as a "helper" at low frequency only, i.e., in "0.5" mode?

A link to the schematic will tell the tale; if they're just in parallel, it would not be surprising that the midrange has "issues."

Also, what is the crossover frequency?
 
I have a schematic of the crossover but can't figure out how to upload it here. I think it crosses over at around 1.5 KHz, and I think the 2 woofers are in series. It could be in parallel, but the diagram doesn't make that clear and I'd have to look inside the speakers to be sure. I know the two woofers don't see any differences from the crossover. My speakers are at the office - I have measured the cutout size before but can't remember now. I think they're around a rectangular 5" by 10" or so.

Would it be a good idea for me to start a new thread about this in the Klipsch section rather than continue it in this "Econowave Megathread"?
 
Zilch said:
3.5 kHz is more suited to a smaller woofer. I doubt if an 8" acoustic suspension is going to get there competently, and even if so, there are beamwidth issues in matching the two.
Click to expand...
I noticed that the OEM Tweeter is a K-76, which is actually used in the Klipsch Heresy II. The Heresy I used the K-77 (also found in the Cornwall and LaScala), while the Heresy III uses a K-107-TI.

I haven't listened to these in a while, but from my memory the higher frequencies weren't bad. It was probably the bass that was lacking. In any case, the Selenium D2500Ti-Nd drivers should by default improve the high frequency reproduction. And then I take it that the Econowave crossover circuitry would better leverage the existing woofer?
 
Doc Rock said:
Would it be a good idea for me to start a new thread about this in the Klipsch section rather than continue it in this "Econowave Megathread"?
Click to expand...
We try to keep EconoWave discussions in this thread. I rarely venture outside the Speakers forum.


myu701 said:
I noticed that the OEM Tweeter is a K-76, which is actually used in the Klipsch Heresy II. The Heresy I used the K-77 (also found in the Cornwall and LaScala), while the Heresy III uses a K-107-TI.
Click to expand...
Tangent was made by Klipsch?

I'm suggesting that a larger waveguide and lower crossover frequency may well improve them....
 
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Had to go to the office for something else, so now I know that the horn cutouts are 4.25 by 7.5 inches. The horn itself is about 10 by 6 inches. Unfortunately I forgot to pull a woofer and check whether they're series or parallel.

There are two additional advantages to me of going to an Econowave for this speaker - one is that in doing so I'll go to a titanium diaphragm from phenolic, the other is that I'll go from a non-standard driver connection to a standard 1" screw on connection.

I don't think I completely understand why having the woofers in parallel is a problem. My guess would be that as you get into the shorter midrange wavelengths you have some issues with phase cancellation/addition between the two woofers that wouldn't be a problem at longer bass wavelengths? I guess that will require an addition to the crossover to fix. If I go that far, I might look for a true subwoofer driver to replace the lower woofer in order to reach a bit deeper in the lows.
 
Zilch said:
Tangent was made by Klipsch?

I'm suggesting that a larger waveguide and lower crossover frequency may well improve them....
Click to expand...
You might be thinking of the Danish Tangent speaker company, but this is different. Klipsch actually had a "Tangent" line in the late 80's/early 90's that was lower budget. They retired it, probably for good reason. The quality was generally just a bit too lacking compared to the main Klipsch line, although some models were very close to Heritage models (the Tangent 400 is likened to the Heresy). Ironically, the specs look very good on the T10's.

I've seen a few pairs of T-10's go for quite a bit less than I hoped for possible resale (on eBay), so rather than selling them and taking more of a loss, I figured it would be worthwhile to modify them. The cabinets have a nice real walnut veneer. The crossover circuitry is not much, cluttered on a tiny board that is mounted directly to the terminal cup. There's a decent amount of room inside, though. No baffles, just a lot of sheet foam.

I'd really like to salvage them for use as mains in a small room or rears in a multi-speaker setup, depending upon the results after conversion.
 
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Metrobilly said:
Looks like a narrow "Econowave" with an extra woofer. I suspect Zilch isn't the first to design a horn/cone two way.
Click to expand...

No. Altec and others have done that long ago., But an Econowave can be made from components available now, with the added benefit of constant directivity and with crossover design conceived with the advantage of better measuring systems. IMHOP.
 
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