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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Cerdy,
They look great, congratulations.

When you built the cabs, did you glue and screw or just glue with clamps?

In the pics I see some router evidence on the WG. Is that cutting into the plastic flange or am I simply seeing marks from the router "guide"? (don't know what to call it.)

One more question, are your mains getting a high pass from your sub amp(s)? Or are you running the mains full range?

BTW, I like the paint, too.
:thmbsp:
 
skywave-rider said:
When you built the cabs, did you glue and screw or just glue with clamps?

In the pics I see some router evidence on the WG. Is that cutting into the plastic flange or am I simply seeing marks from the router "guide"? (don't know what to call it.)

One more question, are your mains getting a high pass from your sub amp(s)? Or are you running the mains full range?
Click to expand...

I used glue and clamps for the main cabs. I rabbetted the sides to help with the alignment during glue up, and also made sure the diagonal measurements were equal after clamping to make sure it was all square. I did used a few nail gun brads for helping hold the flange that the back attaches to in place while the glue set. The port and brace were glued in with PL premium for its gap filling properties.

Yes, I did cut into the plastic flange of the waveguide. I routed a 3/8" roundover for the woofer hole (which was right up to the waveguide), with the waveguide in place, so that the roundover just continued all the way around the opening. The amount of material that was actually fully removed from the waveguide was about 1/32" - the rest just "thinned out" a bit. There's a good picture on the AVS thread. A more substantial roundover (like 3/4", may have extended all the way to the mounting screw holes and would have removed a lot more flange. I was still a bit paranoid, and ran a bead of caulk around the perimeter just inside the foam of the WG before I set it in place and did a final screw in - just to make sure it sealed well.

I did the routing on my router table, with the whole face of the cabinet lying on the table and moving the cab relative to the roundover bit (sticking up through the table). It was a very controlled operation. :) Due to sliding the cab around with the WG in place, I did scuff up the WG just a tad. If I had it to do over, I would have put tape on the flange of the WG to protect it while I did that. I ended up shooting a couple coats of rattle can satin black on the WG to cover up my scuffs - a whole fiasco unto itself.

The mains are getting an 80hz 3rd order crossover from my Denon receiver. My WinISD modeling shows them good to a 60hz crossover point (f3 about 55hz)- 40hz would not work for frequency response or excursion issues. When I ran Audyssey, it wanted to set my L/R at 90hz and my identical center at 40hz - go figure. I went in and manually changed all 3 to 80hz. REW doesn't show any major dips at the crossover point that aren't room related (IE same as with my old speakers). I haven't tried 60 yet, but plan to see what sounds better. 30w should get them to about 110 db, so I should have enough headroom... :D

Best,
C.
 
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I have a question for the crossover engineers. I'm using a "Standard Econowave" built in a rather large vented box. I deviated from the formula by using bolt on D220Ti's with Selenium adapters on the Pyle waveguides. This seemed to effect the crossover area enough that I raised the low pass filter frequency a bit to get vocals to sound right. Test gear is an uncalibrated but fairly flat elctret condenser mike to a VTVM, an old HP signal generator. and even older ears.

Anyway, I thought the the high's still sounded ragged and I noted a sizable peak just above 4kHz. This afternoon I rigged up a series LC notch in series with 13 ohms and clipped it across the L pad. No measurements, just played with resistance until it sounded "right". And, it seemed to tame the high's quit a bit. There is probably a lot of room for improvement with more careful implementation and a computer based measuring setup.

I see that Zilch included notch filters in some of his more elaborate crossovers. Is anybody else trying crossover refinements with this driver combo? Some folks are paying for much more expensive compression drivers, but a few more crossover components to smooth out the D220Ti may be more Econo. Any suggestions along these lines?
 
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djnagle said:
If you really want to get rid of diffraction, go to Ikea and get 4 wood salad bowls, then cut out the holes for the wave guides on 2 of them and glue the other 2 to the backs. Totally round....no diffraction. One thing though, you have to use the square wave guides.

I've used them and think they sound better than the rec WGs....jmho.

Scratch that. If you are using the horn, you don't need a back. So just one bowl per side.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40057259

Now that I think about it, standing the WG in free air would work too and not cost anything.
Click to expand...

DO it!

Russellc
 
Cerdy said:
That's my build. Yes, it is styled after the no quarters project, but with some simplifications. I side ported it to avoid using two small ports on the front right at the bottom boundaries. The port is 4" in diameter and 4" long, which gives a 55hz tuning in my 1.65cuft cab. The pa310-8 won't play much lower than that - they are dedicated L/C/Rs with an 80 (or as low as 60) hz crossover to a sub for home theater. I couldn't rear port as they are behind an AT screen and tight to the wall behind the screen. There is enough room to toe in the L/R at 25 degrees though.

I'm holding off on too many comments until I listen to them for a while and do a few tweaks - I've been convinced to add dampening material to the waveguides, and will probably stuff the cabinets more while I'm in there. So far though, the sound is less compressed than the Infinity primus 362/350s I'm coming from, more dynamic, and with only a bit of high frequency harshness. I know I could have used better components, but the price was right with this build, and it will work great for HT. Where I notice the harshness is more with critical music listening. More impressions as the speakers (and my ears) burn in. Heck of a value, and the detail and efficiency these things put out is really impressive.

A big thanks to Zilch for the hard work in putting together this design, and in posting here for me. :yes:

Feel free to fire away with any other questions on the build. Long time lurker, first time poster to this thread. :)

Best,
Christopher
Click to expand...

I noticed the harshness at first as well. Both with the 220 ti and the DE 250.
both smoothed out considerably, with the 220ti still keeping a bit of fizziness about it. I found it was MUCH improved by charge coupling the crossover. many scoff, but if they'd try it they would eat their words. Its all covered in this gigantic thread somewhere!

Russellc
 
Thanks guys ,
Zilch I will be using your hp network for the sr. I just wanted to see how it sums with my lp.
These threads are so long its hard to find some of this stuff. Especially when Im fighting a 2 day migraine.
 
Rightbrained said:
These threads are so long its hard to find some of this stuff.
Click to expand...
I try to link the major content from the first post of the threads.

On the one hand, 12,000 posts is clearly unmanageable, but on the other, it's all in one place as opposed to dozens of threads spread around the site, let alone across multiple forums....
 
Hey Zilch et al. I finished my L55/Selenium/QSC-based econowaves about 3 months ago. They have been in my main system since, and I just wanted check back in to express my appreciation again to Zilch for all of the help designing/testing the crossovers. I have owned many of the speakers that get a lot of attention on AK and I can say at this point that of all of the speakers I have had, I think about these the least. I mean that in the best possible way. I don't think about them because they always just sound right. So, thanks! I am a happy camper at this point.

For those that are interested, the equipment I have been using these with consists of a Fisher 500c receiver, Linn LP12/Valhalla(pre cirkus, etc.) withGrace G704 tonearm, and a cheap Samsung Blu-Ray feeding a Musical Fidelity A3-24 DAC.
 
jbpollock said:
I have owned many of the speakers that get a lot of attention on AK and I can say at this point that of all of the speakers I have had, I think about these the least. I mean that in the best possible way. I don't think about them because they always just sound right. So, thanks! I am a happy camper at this point.
Click to expand...
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3901939#post3901939

Thank you for this update. Speaking for the many contributors to EconoWave design here, we are all pleased you are happy with your first pair after months of listening to them.

[We expect there will be more in your future, now. ;) ]


Rightbrained said:
Im trying not to put too much of my build here since it isnt really one your specified econo-wave designs.
Click to expand...
Variants are always welcome in this thread - different approaches to implementing the concept expand the knowledge base and foster even further experimentation. The "standard" designs are a kick-start: EconoWave has been about exploration since its very outset.

We want to know about your project, and to see it completed.... :yes:
 
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Anyone experimented with the RCF ND350? It's advertised to extend to 20KHz, rather than 18 like the B&C DE250 (or so I've read).

Edit: On second look (at the spec sheets), the FR plots both fall off pretty rapidly toward 20K. Hmmm. :dunno:
 
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Hi gang,

Changes in my living situation have dictated a stereo overhaul and a new pair of main speakers with reasonable amplifier requirements. Right now, I'm implementing an Econowave Standard build (D220ti and Dayton DC300-8 with a PH612 waveguide and off-the shelf Ewave Standard crossover with a Zilchlab 1.1 board) in a re-purposed pair of Advent Utility cabs.

It's been an adventure, for sure. I got them ready to go this morning, only to find out my tweeters didn't work. A little quick exploration (after dealing with a rogue T-nut) showed me that I'd switched L-pad lead #1 and #2, thinking they went in order like on Zilch's PCB.

I've got the re-soldering done, now I just have to get the cabs re-stuffed, the woofers back in, and try again.

Tuning-wise, I'm starting out with two 2" x 6" moderately stuffed ports and about 1.9 lbs of fiberglass and polyfil stuffing per cab.

Future possible plans include re-tuning, vintage guitar-amp type grill cloth, mahogany veneer, and sealed subwoofer accompaniment. I'll give my impressions and some pics this evening.
 
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Metrobilly said:
I have a question for the crossover engineers. I'm using a "Standard Econowave" built in a rather large vented box. I deviated from the formula by using bolt on D220Ti's with Selenium adapters on the Pyle waveguides. This seemed to effect the crossover area enough that I raised the low pass filter frequency a bit to get vocals to sound right. Test gear is an uncalibrated but fairly flat elctret condenser mike to a VTVM, an old HP signal generator. and even older ears.

Anyway, I thought the the high's still sounded ragged and I noted a sizable peak just above 4kHz.
Click to expand...

Interesting. That confirms something that I was hypothetically considering, that might solve a different problem I'm having (involving an Eminence Beta 10CX coax speaker, that with the standard D220Ti (screw on), had a big HOLE in the response around 6KHz. I had been considering using the bolt-on D220, with an adapter, to see if that affected the problem.

I guess it would be asking too much, for the peak noted here, to cancel out the hole I had been experiencing? The above does make me want to go ahead and try it now! :D

Regards,
Gordon.
 
HPR152 waveguides gone?

I went to the QSC parts site today to find the part number for the waveguide today, to send to a friend, and it appears they no longer sell these --
Item# PL-000446-GP
$12.50
This item is currently out of stock or discontinued
Product Description
HORN,HF,HPR152F,,,

To order this part, please contact Technical Services 800-772-2832. You must have a valid serial number to order this part. If you don't not have a valid serial number, you will not be able to order this part.
Click to expand...

Maybe we finally wore out our welcome with them. Or am I not looking in the right place?
 
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