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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

I'd like to thank nick12345 for the XO pics he posted in his Post # 12431. Even though I plan to use Zilch's boards in my final assembly, your XO topology will greatly help my aging brain with getting an external working prototype working properly in a lot less time.
Thanks again;
Jack
 
I have some questions - please help folks.

I am trying to build a set of these ewaves. I am using a GrordonW mix and match magic special 15" woofer. He rconed this specifically for me to do ewaves. It will do 30-well above the 1.2k needed. it has 95/96db spl 1w/1m.

My crossoever, the standard using the 1.5mH and 12uf cap seemed just a bit underwhelming.

GordonW suggested this
Crossover coil: 2mH
Cap: 10uf
Zobel (across woofer): 22uf cap in series with 6.8 ohm 10w resistor

SO, what does increasing the inductor and decreasing the cap do to the sound? More gain? Less Gain? Different frequency response? What?

I am not sue I know what a zobel(filter?) is or does. ANy laymans explainations?

Thanks for the help folks.

BTW - this is going into a 6 cubic foot box, curretnly tuned to 20hz. Made of 3/4" particle board, braced and stuffed with batting.
 
The Zobel as I understand it flattens out the nautural impedance rise of the woofer to a close even 8 ohms. This makes network building more predictable when you have a flat impedance curve instead of the rising impedance woofers/ cone drivers are known for.
DC
 
Increasing the coil and reducing the cap lowers the "electrical resonant Q factor" of the crossover. It acts like a "contour filter", reducing the output on the high-end of the woofer just a tad, just before the ultimate crossover rolloff point, while leaving the actual crossover point at pretty much the same frequency. Tends to reduce "honkiness" in many cases, with the particular type woofers in question here.

In other words- it a type of passive EQ, similar to what the E-wave filter itself does for the horn... it can act to flatten out a woofer with naturally rising response at the top end of its usable range. What's good for the goose, is at least sometimes good for the gander too... :D

Regards,
Gordon.
 
So has there been any progress on sourcing the 152i waveguides? I've called PE a couple of times now and they are all :saywhat: when it comes to the econowave stuff. Yes I have talked to their technical people also.

It would be a shame if we can't get the waveguide anymore :(
 
GordonW said:
Increasing the coil and reducing the cap lowers the "electrical resonant Q factor" of the crossover. It acts like a "contour filter", reducing the output on the high-end of the woofer just a tad, just before the ultimate crossover rolloff point, while leaving the actual crossover point at pretty much the same frequency. Tends to reduce "honkiness" in many cases, with the particular type woofers in question here.

In other words- it a type of passive EQ, similar to what the E-wave filter itself does for the horn... it can act to flatten out a woofer with naturally rising response at the top end of its usable range. What's good for the goose, is at least sometimes good for the gander too... :D

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

Hey Gordon,
Thanks for the input it is appreciated.
I think my problem is that my hearing is very diminished. I need a fair bit of gain in the higher end for me to hear this correctly. I need to figure out how to build a crossover with less db reduction( or more gain ) on the top end.

What I am currently using are the woofers you supplied for me(awesome by the way), a jbl clone compression driver and altec clone 511 horn, and selenium d210ti driver/horn for the top. I am using a PE dayton xover and some attenuators. Believe it or not, that sounds better to me. I must be doing something wrong.
Can anyone suggest the component values to give me a better gain on the high end for the Ewave crossover? Assume it was a woofer with 102db spl 1w/1m - then what?

Thanks,
Mark
 
Can the Zilchlab standard <95db sens xover, designed for the OLA speakers, be used for any 89db driver along with the Selenium 220Ti and appropriate waveguide?

Thanks and Happy New Year to all. :yes:
 
Jcricket said:
Hey Gordon,
Thanks for the input it is appreciated.
I think my problem is that my hearing is very diminished. I need a fair bit of gain in the higher end for me to hear this correctly. I need to figure out how to build a crossover with less db reduction( or more gain ) on the top end.

What I am currently using are the woofers you supplied for me(awesome by the way), a jbl clone compression driver and altec clone 511 horn, and selenium d210ti driver/horn for the top. I am using a PE dayton xover and some attenuators. Believe it or not, that sounds better to me. I must be doing something wrong.
Can anyone suggest the component values to give me a better gain on the high end for the Ewave crossover? Assume it was a woofer with 102db spl 1w/1m - then what?

Thanks,
Mark
Click to expand...

Somewhere in this gigantic thread Wayne worked out a table of cap values for high end compensation.....

Russellc
 
GordonW said:
omg...

...Well, I have to say... the Selenium D2500 lives up to the hype. The little bit of "tizziness" or "metallic texture" on the top of the D220Ti (15K-up region)? It's not there at all on the D2500. Neither is the tiny bit of "raspiness" on the bottom end (around 1.5KHz). Not a bit of histrionics, of any kind. Just SMOOOOOOTH. And detailed. This is, in fact, the best imaging and instrument "sonic texture" I've heard from ANY of the E-wave systems I've built myself, or heard elsewhere, so far.

...This combo should support 101dB woofers, easily... maybe even 102dB...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

I came across this post the other day while wandering the wilderness that is this massive thread, and it's got me thinking about upgrading the FrankenZilch mono horn rig you see in my avatar. It's currently got a D220i, along with a JBL 2220 (101 db). Now I'm curious about the D2500.

Zilch, my question is, would I need to change anything in the crossover? I've got tons of high-end as it is, the L-pad sits around 1:00. Gordon's got me lusting after that SMOOOOOTH thing... :yes:

What do you think? Worth doing?
 
stgdz said:
So has there been any progress on sourcing the 152i waveguides? I've called PE a couple of times now and they are all :saywhat: when it comes to the econowave stuff. Yes I have talked to their technical people also.

It would be a shame if we can't get the waveguide anymore :(
Click to expand...

They were unable to get them direct from QSC, and are looking at having their own version of it made overseas. No ETA given yet.
 

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donprice said:
The threaded adapter has "issues" and should be avoided.
Click to expand...

I think most threaded drivers have "issues". If you compare the Selinium D220Ti threaded version to the D220Ti bolt on version, you'll see that the threads put the phase plug behind where the bolt-on version does. There is still a straight taper, but it's shorter and more rapid on the bolt-on version.

I noticed this when I cut the threads off a 6.5X12 waveguide and converted it to bolt-on. Side by side, the bolt-on has less depth.

Having the exit of the phase plug right at the start of the flare is exactly what JBL went to with their 1.5" series of drivers/waveguides, and, I think a part of why the Deluxe sounds better than the Standard... (The DE250 looks about the same distance back as the bolt-on D220Ti, with a similar rapid flare.)

<EDIT>

Same thing applies to the D2500Ti, the same diaphragm, but it's mounted farther back on the D220Ti. You can see it in the thickness, measured from the flat portion of the input terminal to the flat front next to the threaded snout.

D2500Ti:1.025"
D220Ti: 1.45"

This translates as a "faster flare" (or really a shorter truncated cone).
 
Last edited:
ST305 drop in replacement for DC300?

I live in India, and I had a friend bring in all the components for the "Standard" kit, except the woofer and the waveguide, as they are too large to be carried by hand...

Before I buy the woofer (very expensive international shipping - more than the cost of the woofer itself!) I would like to know if there is a better option @ <$100 or so... I am worried about the build quality and consistency of the DC300, going by the first review on PE's own page...

I found the Dayton ST305 which has healthier Xmax and is "USA Made", fwiw... would it be a drop in replacement for the DC300 recommended for the Standard kit?

I also found the Peerless 830669, which falls within my budget and inspires a little more confidence...

Any other drop in replacement woofers @ <$100 each?

Thanks...
 
I don't know how appropriate this is, but given the extremely low traffic on the classifieds portion of this forum, I'd like to direct your attention there if you are interested in pairs of B&C DE250 drivers, QSC waveguides, JBL 123a woofers, and PE trap cab kits. The ad is in the "Speakers - Boxes" category.

This is part of my "Send a needy 60-yr-old man to Africa" campaign. Thanks, folks. - Pat
 
audiothings said:
I found the Dayton ST305 which has healthier Xmax and is "USA Made", fwiw... would it be a drop in replacement for the DC300 recommended for the Standard kit?

I also found the Peerless 830669, which falls within my budget and inspires a little more confidence...

Any other drop in replacement woofers @ <$100 each?

Thanks...
Click to expand...

The ST305 isn't going to work very well- with the type cone and paper dustcap, they have fairly severe break-up modes in the region where you need to crossover the woofer.

OTOH, that Peerless 12" is one that we've briefly looked at before, at least in passing discussion. It was mentioned as a possible substitute for the JBL 123A. I'd think it could work well- a starting point for a crossover would be the one for the JBL LE14A- maybe modified with a slightly smaller low-pass cap, and a Zobel...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
wilberforce said:
I came across this post the other day while wandering the wilderness that is this massive thread, and it's got me thinking about upgrading the FrankenZilch mono horn rig you see in my avatar. It's currently got a D220i, along with a JBL 2220 (101 db). Now I'm curious about the D2500.

Zilch, my question is, would I need to change anything in the crossover? I've got tons of high-end as it is, the L-pad sits around 1:00. Gordon's got me lusting after that SMOOOOOTH thing... :yes:

What do you think? Worth doing?
Click to expand...

Response of the D2500Ti-Nd, in general, seems to very closely match the D220Ti around the crossover point. The D2500 is just a little "better behaved", both in a lack of distortion/breakup at the bottom end, and a little smoother response in the upper octave...

You will likely wind up turning down the L-pad a tad more (the D2500 is about 1.5dB louder than the D220, or so)... that's about it.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Jcricket said:
Hey Gordon,
Thanks for the input it is appreciated.
I think my problem is that my hearing is very diminished. I need a fair bit of gain in the higher end for me to hear this correctly. I need to figure out how to build a crossover with less db reduction( or more gain ) on the top end.
Click to expand...

Reducing the midrange output of the woofer (with the alternative lowpass I mentioned) will effectively 'EQ down' the mids of the whole system a tad. That might make it where you can turn up the horn just a tad- which would increase the top-end.

If you want more EQ- try putting a higher resistance value (more resistance) in for R1 in the E-wave crossover (across the small cap), and a slightly lower resistance value in for R2 (the resistor in parallel with L1 in the horn circuit). That should make the "shelf" a little "steeper"... which will 'boost' the top octave, relative to the midrange. You will probably need to turn up the L-pad a tad more, to get full effect from this.

I'd try maybe about a 20% change each, in R1 and R2 ... see how you like it, before you go further.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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