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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

shaqdaddy86 said:
Here is the crossover for the OG version; would I be better off using the HF section from this with the D220Ti and the LF section from the Deluxe version above? Doesn't look like there is much change to the LF portion of the crossover? I already have the 3012's but can order either compression driver.

View attachment 3076369
Click to expand...
C1: Dayton Audio DMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-422

C2: Dayton Audio DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-430

C3: Dayton Audio DMPC-1.5 1.5uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-412

L1: Dayton Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 257-040

or

Jantzen Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor
Part # 255-040

L2: ERSE 1.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor
Part # 266-552 (More expensive, mounts to PCB using mounting hardware)

or

Dayton Audio 1.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor Crossover Coil Part # 257-552 $4.18 x 2 = $8.36 (Less expensive, mounts using zip ties)

R1: Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part # 004-16

R2: Dayton Audio DNR-25 25 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part # 004-25

L-Pad: L-Pad 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm
Part # 260-255

Binding Posts: Dayton Audio BPA-38SN HD Binding Post Pair Satin Nickel
Part # 091-1247

Waveguide: Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
Part # 270-318

Compression Driver: Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
Part # 264-270


----------------------------------------------------


This was the crossover for the D220TI and the greater than 95db sensitivity woofer, which your woofer is.

I would start here.
_95db Econowave Crossover.png
 
@shaqdaddy86

Looks like you are picking woofer, compression driver and waveguide specific crossover designs, changing the woofers, comp drivers and/or the waveguide and expecting it to work.

Better off using the generic crossover that allows the use of any woofer based on sensitivity as long as you use the correct waveguide and comp driver.

You also need the right cabinet for the woofer...
 
z-adamson said:
@shaqdaddy86

Looks like you are picking woofer, compression driver and waveguide specific crossover designs, changing the woofers, comp drivers and/or the waveguide and expecting it to work.

Better off using the generic crossover that allows the use of any woofer based on sensitivity as long as you use the correct waveguide and comp driver.

You also need the right cabinet for the woofer...
Click to expand...
Thanks! If anyone happens to have a couple QSC waveguides laying around feel free to message me.
 
Matt at MTG-Designs measured up a very reasonable substitute ( IMHO ) to the NLA QSC waveguide.

EV ELX112 waveguide (clone).png


Check out his workup HERE!

Seemingly only available ( direct ) from China.

Check out THIS LINK!

With this waveguide, I'd simply use Zilch's crossover for the "Deluxe" ( as archived over at "Tech-Talk" in his Flex-Your-PCD-Mettle).

:)
 
I've wondered about the QSC 152i for a long time and just spent some time studying the curves at MTG Design.
This WG like most tested in the 1" category has about the same output (with the same driver) at 2 KHz and
is about 3dB down at 1.4 KHz and about 10 dB down at 1 KHz. While the 152i is quite a large guide this low
frequency response is not significantly better than the common JBL 6X12" guide. The question is then why
was it chosen, pattern control, better sound quality? I don't know.
Now MTG used a very nice Celestion driver for most of his 1" tests and seems to have gotten a different
response from the JBL 6X12" than what we find people measured here on AK with the D220Ti.
EarlK kindly plotted the JBL 6X12" AK measured response (with Selenium D220Ti) in another thread with the
JBL 8x8" overlayed and the 8X8" showed far more output at 1KHz, however measurements at MTG Designs
(with a different driver) show a strange shelved down response for the JBL 8X8".
It's possible that if you're set on using the Selenium D220Ti then the JBL 8X8" is a good/better choice than
the standard JBL 6X12".
As I've mentioned several times here the JBL 6X12" WG shows much better performance with JBL drivers intended
for the WG and it seems to be a less than optimal match for the D220Ti.

I was about to write that we don't have a crossover designed for the JBL driver on the JBL 6X12" guide but then
remembered that EarlK provided a simulated only design that will probably work very well but must be tested:

Excellent Crossover Design/Simulation for JBL 2414HC on JBL 6x12 Clone Waveguide

We must give EarlK credit for tracing Mike's measurement curves, researching how JBL designs a crossover for this combo and then coming up with a design taylored to the combo that we're working with. His design, that he posted here, is the basis for this simulation: Outstanding Performance From...
audiokarma.org

I compared polars for a bunch of guides looking for one better than the standard JBL 6X12" but I still believe
that it is an excellent choice with the right driver:

JBL 6X12 Clone Waveguide, Eminence H290S , Pi H290C and Others Compared

The Pi Speakers H290C Waveguide is a variation on the Eminence H290 WG with the primary difference being that the Eminence is close to an OS taper and the H290C makes it true OS. The differences are described in this thread provided by @safebet ...
audiokarma.org
 
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It would be good to know the -6dB XO points used here on AK for various designs using the QSC 152i and clones.
 
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Several, including myself, have commented on here that the "standard" Econowave JBL (338800-001)
6x12" WG is NLA, which is probably true from JBL but here it is at The Speaker Exchange:
reconingspeakers.com

JBL 338800-001 Replacement Horn Lens - The Speaker Exchange

Brand New Genuine JBL Replacement Screw-on Horn Lens #338800-001. Used in JRX100 Series, JRX200 Series, PRX600 Series, Sound Factor Series. Used in the following models: JRX112M, JRX112MI, JRX115, JRX115I, JRX125, JRX212, JRX215, JRX225, SF12M, SF12MI, SF15, SF15I, SF25, PRX612M, PRX615M...
reconingspeakers.com reconingspeakers.com

I've mentioned in several threads that MTG Designs found that the original JBL has better top end
response than the Dayton clone, the Chinese clone is closer/same as the JBL. This is a good reason
to use the JBL or Chinese clone in designs where it matters.
 
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I've been thinking about a very large Econowave, probably >=5cuft and with a 15" woofer probably
inspired by my curiosity about the Altec Model 19 (M19). I don't know of anyone publishing an Econowave
design similar to the M19, but I have noticed that Zilch did the Z19, then used an LE-14 with an
Econowave guide on top, was this intended to be as good if not better - don't know?

I've mentioned the current JBL M2 but everything is expensive about it, and it is biamped, then read
just a few days ago that the JBL 4367 was a passive M2 in a bigger box, with the same woofer in a -1
version, coated for more mass and more bass without DSP EQ - nice:


The woofers are available at about $1K a pair, not sure where to get the horn. The M2 horn and driver
are also available but not cheap.

Erin tests it and likes it:
 
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z-adamson said:
What are your plans for a cabinet?

Looks like the crossover you are using states “Dayton trap cab, rear mounted”…

Those trap cabs arnt around anymore I don’t think.
Click to expand...
A pair of Pioneer CS-99a’s that have multiple blown drivers. They sure never sounded as impressive as they looked to me, and the baffle width is pretty much the same as the trap cabinets.
 
The cabinet width is important so that's a good start. Next is to make sure that the centre to centre distance between the drivers is the same as how Zilch set it. Closer together being preferable to wider apart.
 
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shaqdaddy86 said:
A pair of Pioneer CS-99a’s that have multiple blown drivers. They sure never sounded as impressive as they looked to me, and the baffle width is pretty much the same as the trap cabinets.
Click to expand...
Being able to fit the drivers into the enclosure is nice, but so is cabinet tuning to the woofer and center to center, woofer to comp driver. Voice coil depth should be the same for both drivers too. That’s likely why zilch rear mounted the woofer.
 
shaqdaddy86 said:
Here is the crossover for the OG version; would I be better off using the HF section from this with the D220Ti and the LF section from the Deluxe version above? Doesn't look like there is much change to the LF portion of the crossover? I already have the 3012's but can order either compression driver.
Click to expand...
Are you planning on measuring the response and tweaking the crossover components? If so, you could go with an active crossover (miniDSP or similar) instead of a drawer full of spare crossover parts. Good luck!
 
Edit: It would be a lot of work to find a configuration that provides a good response, if it has already been done then maybe
but at least this is a large guide:

A fairly large 1.5" entry JBL (352606-002) waveguide, about 14x9", MTG testing, it seems to be very dependent on
the driver mated to it. Note that he used 1.4" drivers:
www.mtg-designs.com

MTG Designs - JBL352 HF146R

Manufacturers Info Brand: JBL (clone) Model: 352606-002 Style: --- Coverage (H x V): 75 x 50 Minimum Frequency: ---Hz Throat: 1.5" Mounting Type: 4-bolt Dimensions (W x H x D): 353mm x 230mm x 150mm
www.mtg-designs.com www.mtg-designs.com

It is certainly not cheap but I believe that there's a china clone:
reconingspeakers.com

JBL 352606-002 Horn Lens for SRX715, SRX722, SRX725 - The Speaker Exchange

Brand New Genuine JBL 352606-002 Horn Lens 75 x 50. Used in models: SRX715 SRX722 SRX725
reconingspeakers.com reconingspeakers.com

It looks basically like a scaled up version of the JBL 6x12" WG and I wonder if it would perform well
with a 3D printed 1.5" to 1" adapter and a driver that matches well.

Response is not very smooth and I wonder if the correct JBL driver would be significantly better.
Response is very different depending on the driver, looks like the Celestion might work well down to 1K.

Anyone know if Zilch or any members tried it? Obviously might be a replacement for the QSC.
 
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Pete B said:
I've wondered about the QSC 152i for a long time and just spent some time studying the curves at MTG Design.
This WG like most tested in the 1" category has about the same output (with the same driver) at 2 KHz and
is about 3dB down at 1.4 KHz and about 10 dB down at 1 KHz. While the 152i is quite a large guide this low
frequency response is not significantly better than the common JBL 6X12" guide. The question is then why
was it chosen, pattern control, better sound quality? I don't know.
Now MTG used a very nice Celestion driver for most of his 1" tests and seems to have gotten a different
response from the JBL 6X12" than what we find people measured here on AK with the D220Ti.
EarlK kindly plotted the JBL 6X12" AK measured response (with Selenium D220Ti) in another thread with the
JBL 8x8" overlayed and the 8X8" showed far more output at 1KHz, however measurements at MTG Designs
(with a different driver) show a strange shelved down response for the JBL 8X8".
It's possible that if you're set on using the Selenium D220Ti then the JBL 8X8" is a good/better choice than
the standard JBL 6X12".
As I've mentioned several times here the JBL 6X12" WG shows much better performance with JBL drivers intended
for the WG and it seems to be a less than optimal match for the D220Ti.

I was about to write that we don't have a crossover designed for the JBL driver on the JBL 6X12" guide but then
remembered that EarlK provided a simulated only design that will probably work very well but must be tested:

Excellent Crossover Design/Simulation for JBL 2414HC on JBL 6x12 Clone Waveguide

We must give EarlK credit for tracing Mike's measurement curves, researching how JBL designs a crossover for this combo and then coming up with a design taylored to the combo that we're working with. His design, that he posted here, is the basis for this simulation: Outstanding Performance From...
audiokarma.org

I compared polars for a bunch of guides looking for one better than the standard JBL 6X12" but I still believe
that it is an excellent choice with the right driver:

JBL 6X12 Clone Waveguide, Eminence H290S , Pi H290C and Others Compared

The Pi Speakers H290C Waveguide is a variation on the Eminence H290 WG with the primary difference being that the Eminence is close to an OS taper and the H290C makes it true OS. The differences are described in this thread provided by @safebet ...
audiokarma.org
Click to expand...
So the QSC152i does not perform any better than the JBL 6x12 at low frequency. And you don't know why Zilch used the QSC.

MTG gets different test results with a Celestion driver on the 6x12 JBL than folks here using the same 6x12 with a D220ti.

MTG gets different test results than EarlK with the 8x8 JBL guide, again, using different drivers.

It's possible that the 8x8 is a better choice than the 6x12 w/ the D220ti. The D220ti seems less than ideal for the 6x12.

Earlk has a simulated design for a JBK driver on the 6x12, but it's untested.


Trying to figure out what you are trying to say here with all of this. Different people get different test results when testing different drivers on the same waveguide. That sounds like a given. You don't know why Zilch used the QSC guide. Well, nobody else does either. He didn't explain here on AK. Earlk's simulated designs are untested and thus need to be tested. That's a given too. The 6x12 JBL guide is an excellent choice with the right driver. But isn't ANY well designed waveguide an excellent choice with the right driver and not such a good choice with the wrong driver? That sounds like a given too.

Sincere questions and comments here. Just trying to follow what you are saying.
 
turnitdown said:
It is laborious doing all the testing and changing components to tune it right. My hat is off to Zilch, Gordon, Russel, Pete, EarlK, et al. Every project is a project. Hahahahaha.
Click to expand...
UPDATE: the mounting rings push the woofers too far forward to get time alignment right. BOTTOM LINE: I am restoring these to original condition 4612OKs and with 2235s in 4507 cabinets will have a cranking system for one of the rooms.

BIG PLEA: Has anyone tweaked the crossovers in the 4612s to make them more Hifi? My use for these will not be playback at concert levels so the 2404H can be crossed lower without damage?
 
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