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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

z-adamson said:
So the QSC152i does not perform any better than the JBL 6x12 at low frequency. And you don't know why Zilch used the QSC.

MTG gets different test results with a Celestion driver on the 6x12 JBL than folks here using the same 6x12 with a D220ti.

MTG gets different test results than EarlK with the 8x8 JBL guide, again, using different drivers.

It's possible that the 8x8 is a better choice than the 6x12 w/ the D220ti. The D220ti seems less than ideal for the 6x12.

Earlk has a simulated design for a JBK driver on the 6x12, but it's untested.


Trying to figure out what you are trying to say here with all of this. Different people get different test results when testing different drivers on the same waveguide. That sounds like a given. You don't know why Zilch used the QSC guide. Well, nobody else does either. He didn't explain here on AK. Earlk's simulated designs are untested and thus need to be tested. That's a given too. The 6x12 JBL guide is an excellent choice with the right driver. But isn't ANY well designed waveguide an excellent choice with the right driver and not such a good choice with the wrong driver? That sounds like a given too.

Sincere questions and comments here. Just trying to follow what you are saying.
Click to expand...
@z-adamson You've summarized my points fairly well.
My response was to the member wanting to do a design with the NLA QSC152i guide, which I happen
to have, and always thought MUST have better LF than the JBL 6X12, this was the first time that I actually
looked at the numbers and I'll have to look again to confirm but it doesn't look that much better than the
real JBL 6X12" matched to a good driver. It doesn't seem possible with the QSC152i being so much larger
than the JBL, very strange, I'm guessing that I missed something.
Edit: Looking at the QSC152i WG again, it is 14" wide as compared to 12" for the JBL, not a huge difference
and it does have a bit better LF response. It is much larger in height at 10" vs. 6" for the JBL.

I was going to also suggest the JBL 8x8" which, I think with the D220Ti
has very good LF response, but also something new to me, is that with the Celestion driver that MTG used
the JBL 8x8 shows a less good LF response. I may be repeating myself but I just learned a few of these points
on the day that I made that last post. There's so much data it's very difficult to figure this all out.

I'm fairly new to horns and WGs and am learning more and more that horn to driver matching is very important.
I'd like to make some sense of it but so far, I don't have any general guidelines.

I should probably add the QSC152i guide and the JBL 8X8 to the thread comparing mostly roughly 6x12" guides with regard to pattern:

JBL 6X12 Clone Waveguide, Eminence H290S , Pi H290C and Others Compared

The Pi Speakers H290C Waveguide is a variation on the Eminence H290 WG with the primary difference being that the Eminence is close to an OS taper and the H290C makes it true OS. The differences are described in this thread provided by @safebet ...
audiokarma.org
 
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Turns out my 220i were bolt on, not threaded. I had grabbed some H6512 to convert my ADS 570/2 and low and behold, I got the tweeter fixed and they are way too nice now to convert.

Now I am back to what I had before... Celestion CDX1-1745 (supposedly a drop in for DE250) on B52 Waveguides and Eminence Delta 12LFA woofers. Not the ideal woofer with the peakiness, but I've got a bunch of em cheap and that's what is on hand.


I have seen minrig used them in a build here, so it gives me some hope... not tons. Wondering tho if the econowave is what I'm after of if I want to try to make a more tailored crossover?
 
turnitdown said:
UPDATE: the mounting rings push the woofers too far forward to get time alignment right. BOTTOM LINE: I am restoring these to original condition 4612OKs and with 2235s in 4507 cabinets will have a cranking system for one of the rooms.

BIG PLEA: Has anyone tweaked the crossovers in the 4612s to make them more Hifi? My use for these will not be playback at concert levels so the 2404H can be crossed lower without damage?
Click to expand...

I'm restoring some 4331's and have a pair of the older 2402H which is basically the same driver but with the earlier bullet horn.

My 2402's needed new diaphragms which are essentially a flat disk of aluminium. It seems to have very little excursion.

Looking at the JBL user manual you can see the response drops like a rock below 5khz so I'd be very weary of running them too much below the spec'ed 3khz.

Thats a big gap to bridge between the 800hz or so you'd want to run the 15" 2235's up to for some off axis pattern control and avoidance of cone breakup.
 
Mazza said:
I'm restoring some 4331's and have a pair of the older 2402H which is basically the same driver but with the earlier bullet horn.

My 2402's needed new diaphragms which are essentially a flat disk of aluminium. It seems to have very little excursion.

Looking at the JBL user manual you can see the response drops like a rock below 5khz so I'd be very weary of running them too much below the spec'ed 3khz.

Thats a big gap to bridge between the 800hz or so you'd want to run the 15" 2235's up to for some off axis pattern control and avoidance of cone breakup.
Click to expand...
The entire 4612 will sit on top of the 2235s making essentially three-way.
 
@Pete B

The QSC 152i waveguide does have better LF response than the H6512 or the original JBL part.

It just needs to have a driver ( attached to it ) that has a reasonable LF response ( as would be seen on a Plain-Wave tube measurement ).

That LF requirement excuses both the Celestion CDX1-1731 & CDX1-1745 drivers that have little to no response below 1800hz.
- ( most likely the de250 is also a no-go > though I don't own that driver to test out ) .

IMHO, the 152i is wasted on the high crossover points typically used in the eWave variants ( especially when used with 12" woofers ).

I think it's better reserved ( if someone is holding > so-to-speak ) for a project having a 15" woofer below it and requiring an @ 1Khz-1250hz crossover point.

The following pics show 2, "Best-In-Class" projects that really ( IMHO ) fit that bill:
- The first 2 pics are from a project that Zonker92 had made up for a friend. See: JBL-L45-Flare-eWaves
- The follow-on pics belong to a project that Zilch worked up ( over at diyaudio ) for a retrofit of some Jensen UlraFlex type Corner Horns belonging to "Wilberforce".
- Those are JBL 2220a's woofers and Selenium 220Ti OMF's drivers bolted onto the 152i waveguides.
- Zilch tweaked up a modified eWave >95db network for Wilberforce ( after trying out the Altec M19 on the HF section ). See the included pic of the quite linear HF responses:

IMG_9560 (Large).JPG_DSC1375-001 (Large).JPGWilberforce_P1010389Medium.jpgD220Ti 152i.jpgD220Ti 152i eWave HP.jpg

These two projects are the ones that most float my boat ( aesthetically ) when the 152i gets put into use.

:)
 
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Here are three drivers that can get close to a 1K crossover point ( for Home HiFi usage only ) when used on the 152i WG and it's clones.

3-Compression Drivers on the 152i Waveguide.png

Granted, only the JBL//Radian-loaded is somewhat obtainable.

The traces are really here to instruct about the ( recently debated ) low-end capability of the 152i waveguide.

MattG's work is impeccable ( but people do need a good backgrounding in horn//driver theory to get the most from it ).

Here's a study ( derived from his work ) of the Celestion CDX1-1731 ( which uses the same diaphragm as the CDX1-1745 ) on various waveguides.
- What might not be apparent at first glance is that a crossover worked-up for this driver on any 1 of these 4 waveguides >> will also perform very well on the other 3.

CDX1-1731 on various waveguides (hor).png

Compare to how the ancient + heavier B&C de25 ( circa 1999 ) really outperforms the newer CDX1-1731 in the lower end ( probably best to ignore the HF differences for now due to the use of different calibration files for the test mics ) :

B+C de25 + CDX1-1731 on QSC-152i_.png

:)
 
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So, I don't really know why the "Deluxe" eWave ( as developed by Zilch ) used the QSC 152i along with the de250 driver.

I have my suspicions ( that I'll keep private for now ) but suffice to say >> it's the just way a bunch of historical interactions developed over the time period back then.

That said, ( IMHO ) the "Deluxe" moniker is much more about the driver ( and not the 152i waveguide ).
- ( OTOH ), Titanium diaphragms were ( and still are ) mostly looked down upon due to their "zinging" reputation when used in a compression driver.
- So the 220Ti getting relegated to "Standard" makes sense > in view of that bias .

Anyways, here's the Celestion CDX1-1731 on the two waveguides of note ( & between about 1750hz - 10K one can see the traces track each other remarkably close ).

IOW, thread that Celestion driver onto the recommended standard JBL eWave waveguide ( or a Dayton H6512 ) and one can realistically call that project a "Deluxe" ( IMO ).

CDX1-1731 on eWave clone waveguide + QSC 152i.png

:)
-
 
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Okay, ( final post in this series ).

Here's a comparison of the SEOS-15 ( with the CDX1-1731 driver of course ) compared to the same driver on the EV ELX112 clone WG ).

It's another remarkable example of very close trace tracking ( mostly within a 1db ) over the full working band-width .

CDX1-1731 on SEOS-15 + ev ELX112 clone .png

Maybe people can now see why I think there's a "New-Sheriff-in-Town".

:)
 
EarlK please, just one more in the series - polar plots would be very appreciated, naturally wave guides are for controlling off axis and I think that's pertinent information therefore .

:banana:
 
Hey Mazza,

Here's Matts' horizontal polar for the EV ELX112 clone WG ( with the Celestion CDX1-1731 driver ):

CDX1-1731 on EV ELX112-clone_VituixCAD Directivity (hor).png

And now Matts horizontal polar for the SEOS-15 ( same CDX1-1731 driver ):

CDX1-1731 on SEOS_15 VituixCAD Directivity (hor).png

All the other polars are available for viewing at Matts mtg-design website within the "Tests" section.

:)
 
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@EarlK So, if I'm reading you correctly, it seems that what mainly made the Deluxe improved was more
the driver than the WG because the crossover point is not real low and the selected driver didn't make use
of the QSC guides LF performance, so perhaps, with testing and XO tuning, the Celestion CDX1-1731 on either
a JBL 6X12 or the ELX112 might sound just as good for a Deluxe build?
Note that the CDX1-1731 is listed as backordered at PE expected in any day now.
Do we know of other premium CD drivers that are still available at a reasonable price?
Or even better econo priced with premium sound?

A few points:
If there is a horn/WG sound around 1 -5 KHz with WGs that have very similar frequency
responses in that range, it could be that the rolloff below 1K impacts the ringing (transient response)
around the XO point - pure speculation.

CD WG combos are probably minimum phase, which means that if we have a well tested/performing design
and we want to substitute a different CD-WG combo (or just one) then matching the new combo FR to the
old FR will duplicate the original FR. Of course, if one has measurement capability then also measure the
system output, with both normal and one reverse driver connection to see the summed output, and the
reverse null depth and listening angle.
 
@Pete B

I'm sure that there are lots of good choices ( of very affordable CD's ) .

For instance, DIYsoundgroup uses Celestion drivers in many of their kits >> so that's a good follow-on recommendation.

Also, currently the price of PRV drivers is stupid cheap >> I'm confident they would be a good choice for at least an entry level eWave project.

PRV D280Ti ( with threaded snout ) - having a Titanium diaphragm ( like the Selenium d220Ti but currently at half the price )

PRV D290PY-S ( with threaded snout ) - having a Polyimide diaphragm ( the same type of diaphragm as the "deluxe" B&C de250 ) >> ( too bad about its longish back-ordered status )
- It's very much worth reading the customer reviews about this particular driver ( they are found within my provided link ).
- Polyimide diaphragms are consistently given top marks for being HiFi like ( & natural sounding for the voice ) by users.

I've ordered ( from China ) one of those cloned EV ELX112 waveguides ( it should arrive towards the end of the month ) .
Once it arrives I'll bolt a CDX1-1745 driver onto it and see how one of the stock eWave crossovers does with it.

:)
 
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Mazza said:
Shame about the cost of shipping to Australia!
Click to expand...
@Mazza

eBay created it's "International Shipping" regime//option for ( USA ??? only ) sellers specifically to get around these ridiculous international shipping rates ( like you've shown).

- Of course the rub is that any seller will still need to opt-in and then offer it as an option to the buyer >> and ( of course ) most importantly, the item needs to be made available for sale on eBay.
- At least eBay is trying to encourage affordable international sales .

:)

PS: The Celestion CDX1-1748 ( thread-on ) also has a polyimide diaphragm ( though I see that your local sellers have that driver costing around $170 AU ) .
- Oddly, for some reason, your AU sellers prefer to call it the T6300.
 
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I have some celestion 15ftr3070c woofers, 510 clone horns, and EV DH1A compression drivers... I run this combo in a pair of k402 MEHs and they sound great crossed over @500hz. I am thinking of a pair of econowaves for surrounds and maybe a center channel.

1: If I was to use the horn and drivers I have...could I cross over at 500hz in a econowave cabinet?
2: where can I find the cabinet dimensions to build a pair?
 
Yes, thanks EarlK. The celestions are great value here, if not exactly cheap. I currently use their cdx-1745 and it is silky smooth.

Also of note are the locally available and great value SB Audience range...

SB Audience Range | Wagner Online Electronic Stores

Wagner Electronics Online Store for Audio Visual Installation, Cellular Accessories, Electronic Components, Batteries, Chargers, AC / DC Power Supplies, Lighting, Telephone accessories, Electronic Test Equipment, Tools, Audio Speakers, car sound, Data Racks, Computer Accessories, Cat5/6 Cables...
www.wagneronline.com.au www.wagneronline.com.au

Cheers
 
I have wondered about this SB CD for some time. It is similar to the JBL that performs so well on the
6X12" WG in that it is like a poly dome 1" tweeter with front adapter and phase plug: Excellent price.
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

SB Audience Bianco 25CD-P Compression Driver- 1"

SB Audience Bianco 25CD-P Compression Driver- 1"
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

Note the low Fc in the impedance graph, suggested crossover is 2.5K but that's probably for PA use
where the power is much higher. Decent SPL at 107 dB.

There are many other SB CD drivers. 1.73" Poly dome:
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

SB Audience Bianco 44CD-PK Compression Driver- 1"

SB Audience Bianco 44CD-PK Compression Driver- 1"
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com www.madisoundspeakerstore.com
 
Pete B said:
I have wondered about this SB CD for some time. It is similar to the JBL that performs so well on the
6X12" WG in that it is like a poly dome 1" tweeter with front adapter and phase plug: Excellent price.
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

SB Audience Bianco 25CD-P Compression Driver- 1"

SB Audience Bianco 25CD-P Compression Driver- 1"
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

Note the low Fc in the impedance graph, suggested crossover is 2.5K but that's probably for PA use
where the power is much higher. Decent SPL at 107 dB.

There are many other SB CD drivers. 1.73" Poly dome:
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

SB Audience Bianco 44CD-PK Compression Driver- 1"

SB Audience Bianco 44CD-PK Compression Driver- 1"
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com www.madisoundspeakerstore.com
Click to expand...
The first one looks a lot like the old B&C DE10.
 
Good call, it sure does, and the DE10 is still listed at PE as backordered at more than twice the price.
I wonder how the DE10 performed.
 
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